Vile

Well ,as per Shredr's request I've read the topic and, I'm going to try to keep this brief but containing all necessary information so bare with me. First off, CHA and Buffs. CHA [charm]* affects the following stats: Heal potency / strength Damage over Time & Healing over Time potency /strength Critical Defense rating Buff & Debuff potency / strength Sometimes increases quest rewards with more zulie, experience or items. Important notes on Buffs: 1: Buffs scale on CHA primarily, and Class Main stat Secondarily « STR increases Soldier buffs for example ». 2: Buffs automatically adjust on yourself, if you were the one to cast the buff. This does NOT automatically scale on allies you buffed. 3: Buffs were on all classes for a VERY long time. The buffs were NOT removed from Cleric and "given" to the other classes, they already had them. 4: "Class" buffs « STR, Attack Power, Def, HP for Soldiers as an example» scale faster / are more potent than Cleric buffs. They have been, for a long time in NA. 5: Buffs aren't "necessarily" included in the Passive Procs buffing system. Some buffs are in the system "temporary passives" that can stack with standard buffs. The positions / POV's being expressed here [and in some other threads] seem to be: Clerics should be the only class with buffs, because they're useless with everything else Clerics should be the only class with buffs, because it's their "identity" Clerics should be the only class with buffs, because that's how it's always been Clerics should be the strongest buffer because it's their job CHA shouldn't be the buffing stat Clerics are Dead on Arrival if they don't have all the best buffs, and all buffs. Clerics won't get parties cause no one wants to lose EXP to a bad buffer, and heals aren't worth it I won't play ROSE if I don't get my way, and my way is Clerics are the only, and best buffing class So let's go in order - Clerics should be the only class with buffs, because they're useless with everything else. Patently wrong. Clerics being the only dedicated Healing class in the game are required for end-game NA content, even more-so with the removal of Runes and other passives / effects they brought with them. Beyond that, they're strong map presence in PvP and are very much more than capable of being a threat in terms of damage. This isn't iRose, Clerics aren't just a buff turret in the NA Client. - Clerics should be the only class with buffs, because it's their "identity". That's a subjective take. I and many others, see Clerics as a support, healer, and active member of the party. If your idea of the perfect Cleric is you alt-tab to it once every 15 minutes for a buff then go back to youtube, then my opinion is that's a pretty pathetic identity that needs to be improved upon. - Clerics should be the only class with buffs, because that's how it's always been. Appeal to history. One of my most hated fallacious arguments. - Clerics should be the stronger buffer because it's their job Times change, in fact in NA that change happened years ago. And Clerics adapted. They became more versatile, nimble, active, and engaged. They couldn't crutch their buffs for a party spot in dungeons, they had to have good healing, and stay with the group. react to debuffs and stuns, and more. Clerics have a loose role, "support the party" how they chose to do it doesn't necessarily necessitate buffing. They can support it with healing, damage, mitigation, control and more. - CHA shouldn't be the buffing stat. The make it SEN. If you make it INT, then you've only resolved a perceived problem for Clerics, and made it so you would need INT Soldiers, INT Hawkers and INT Dealers for buff builds. And that would categorical be worse than CHA, since CHA bring heals, debuffs, crit defense and more. - Clerics are Dead on Arrival if they don't have all the best buffs, and all buffs. They'll be fine. Doom posting just makes the poster look desperate and incapable of presenting a fact-based point of view. If you have specific concerns that you think will result in the drop of Cleric players, make them clearly heard. [Also, there is nothing wrong with a dead class, Axe Champion, XBow Scouts, Dual Raiders to a degree, and Battle Artisans were all considered "dead jobs" with only a few dedicated players continuing to use them. And no one cared or defended them. Why should this time be any different if, and thats a BIG IF, that's true. [this is a point to raise debate, I personally want every class to be viable/fun] - Clerics won't get parties cause no one wants to lose EXP to a bad buffer, and heals aren't worth it That's not a thing in NA. There is never a net loss by inviting another player to your leveling party outside of them actually doing nothing. And if you don't kick someone leeching from your group, that's on you. - I won't play ROSE if I don't get my way, and my way is Clerics are the only, and best buffing class I'm not going to dignify this with an answer beyond grow up. So, what do I think the solution or possible solution[s] are to this whole problem? Well, I'm going to point to the core problem. Scaling Buffs. That's the root cause of this whole debate. So we need to figure out, is this worth it anymore. Me personally? I think ROSE can exist without scaling buffs but keeping the strong buff meta. But let's address what's currently being discussed, cause my opinions don't really matter that much. Dual clienting - the limiting factor? No. Dual Clienting won't prevent a buff slave meta. People will simply log between the 3 buff slave characters [Soldier, Hawker and Dealer] and then Cleric to buff their main from 1 account, and their main on the other. You do however make it a LOT more inconvenient, which is a deterrent and deterrents when applied accurately to the right points, works. When to buff slave buff, and when to not If you're leveling out in Sikuku Ruins, or some other big map [pvp or not] then switching between 4 characters to buff your party [you can buff non-party members in AoE by using the Game Arena group system] that's a nightmare. Imaging running through the entire map 4 times every quarter to half hour. Just stick to the Cleric and relax. If you're set up afking in TG, go ahead, you can log in/out at the safe spot on buff slaves. But this is content with no reward, do we REALLY need to police how people and players have fun? I don't think so, but that's me. Dungeons? Yeah, Buff slaving in Dungeons isn't possible, unless you're on a solo build [which haven't proven will remain possible with this new version] AND you can't manually qeue a party without all slots filled, without using group finder, and that's random, no guarantee you'll get your mains group. Just stick to your main and 1 buffer or a Cleric. [recommended Cleric]. Buff Slaves are useless for anything else: Far far far from. A full investment CHA spear champion can be an absolute menace with debuffs and DoT's / status. A max CHA investment Katar can burn down enemies requiring little to no accuracy, and a CHA duel raider can absolutely wreak havoc on a focused target. Max CHA Artisan? Insane poison and debuff potential while retaining massive accuracy. Same for Bourgeois but replace poison with Burn. Buff slaves when built and skilled / geared correctly, can absolutely retain combat value and remain viable [just won't be THE strongest] So, my proposed solution, and I've made this solution before but this time I'll thoroughly outline why. Buff Auras. 1: Requires you to be within proximity of the Buffer. 2: Can retain the dynamic scaling the buff system has, AND apply it dynamically to your party. This fixes the issues currently where only the buffers received buffs are scaled down after taking off CHA gear. 3: Prevents re-log buff scumming. 4: Prevents buff slaves in PvP and other dangerous fields as they'll need to be in combat capable gear / stat distributions, but if that's true, their given Aura will dynamically adjust down, and thus their party gets weaker buffs. 5: This could, COULD, make it so Clerics will be the safest Aura Buff unit in the combat field, and retaining high CHA on a Cleric results in high critical defense, and stronger Heals, Buffs and Debuffs. Meanwhile safer maps, like low level grinding maps could host high level buffers to help low level characters safely level with strong auras. [You will still need several players to have their own alt to fill the whole GA group but that's a logistics problem, not a design problem]. Problems I see: You would have effectively removed buff dispelling from the game, outside of silencing the buffer to prevent the Aura from being deployed, Thus making silences EXTREMELY strong. Is buff dispelling an acceptable loss? Some will absolutely say yes, or no, that's for the community to decide. I personally don't care as the tactic would go from dispelling buffs, to focusing the Aura giver. That's my proposed solution that fixes most holes, while keeping the new direction the DEV's have in mind, AND not outmoding Clerics buffing role. And for those who think this doesn't impact me, my main this time is going to be a Cleric. So I will have to directly deal with this situation.So I have an invested interest in making this work smoothly.

Hey, in case y'all have lost perspective: topic like this, and the back and forth they contain are exactly the perfect example of why people aren't so willing to jump into this community and/or play this game. A Brief synopsis: Suggestion that all classes have a unique craft was made. Someone brings unrelated topics up and how they're upset about it, thus skeptical and dismissive of any suggestion [made by community, and not the Developers that they have a disagreement with] Topic devolves into inane argument over ideals and ignores the topic at hand. Someone like me stops by to read up on the recent discussions and news, sees it and immediately walks back some interest in the game. Be better. As for the OP: I disagree with it only due to lacking a more fleshed out mental image. It's lacking a cost/benefit analysis, and it encroaches on the role of Artisans. I'm open to professions and life skills etc in ROSE, but I would have liked to see more assessment of the idea and it's challenges. [and a lot less off topic arguments]

Sorry checking email messages and saw this thread. This already exists, it's not 50% but you can Disassemble Honor/Valor gear and get currency back. I think it's 30'something percent. Just lobby to get it increased.

If at some point Rednim has some time to work on it, it'd be nice to see the texturing calls be separated into apply the skin and armor textures in a separate pass, allowing for player to have options on skin tone. Which has been something of a elephant in the room for the last 15 years. Not just for people who wish to look more like themselves ingame, but even for more fantasy options like green orcs, dark elves, red/blue oni etc.

So, like a statistics panel combined with all the things/can I mog it addons. Hmm

I've agreed with you before, you missed it because you were trying to find something to argue with me about.

Unfortunately for you, I did work with the Developers for Na ROSE. So when it comes to how things went and work in NA Rose, I what you might consider.... "A well informed individual, bordering expert". I don't particularly care for the appeal to authority fallacy however, since it's not needed to point to the historical development process that happened in NA, and demonstrate that we did indeed try many things with buffs. We have a catalog of things we tried, many, many times. I don't particularly care that you have 15 years of experience, good for you, I have 18, it doesn't matter. And you're right, they DO read everything, I applaud them for putting up with it too. Because there's a lot of inane debate over things they've already committed to putting up to test as they've decided. And I know for a fact that they're not completely ignorant of how things went in NA, so asking them to repeat the same mistakes and jeopardize what is probably the very last chance ROSE has to succeed in an official capacity, is likely going to be met with refusal. And if I see them starting to stick their hand in the boiling oil [metaphor fyi] I'll give them a sharp and quick warning to not do that. Weather your "15 years of experience" agree or not.

They're the same hoops we jumped through. And it's not me, it's literally hundreds who experienced the NA changes, potentially thousands. We all know how it goes with buffs. And you're right, my experience isn't any more valuable than those of equal experience, but it is more valuable than those with little to no experience and are pontificating out their blow holes about things they clearly know next to nothing about. That facts are facts. You can't have all buffs without making yourself more important than any individual class with only 1/4th the buff options, while keeping buffs important to gameplay, AND discourage people from just stacking all their alts in a party to level themselves and not participate in the MMO aspect of the game. There's a compromise you have to make, and iRose zealots aren't willing to meet in the middle because it goes against their perception of what "makes Rose what it is". And for some reason that includes Clerics at the center of the game world. And I'm not going to look up those two people, especially if it leads to whatever thought process you think is making you correct in this.

No, I'm speaking from experience. We've conducted these experiments on NA over the course of over half a decade, in some cases more. Some people are objectively wrong with things, feelings don't over ride facts. Deal with it and learn to take an L when you've been dealt one.

Bless you.

"Not sure which part you haven't understood" Never said I don't understand, I asked you to lay it all out, so I can show you where you're missing the point. "Clerics have buffs, classes have buffs, buff scrolls exist, all buffs are equal." 1: They're not currently equal, 2: If you're proposing they be equal, see point 2: "2: Why spend SP on buffs, if Clerics take all buffs and they're Equal in proportion. Cleric is going to take them no matter what, so save the SP." " if you wish to play with a party you can get more people's class buffs ..." Why would I have class buffs, if Clerics are taking all their buffs [and presumably have all buffs]. Why would any class other than Clerics have them if they're equal, You'd be wasting points. "...(they do this in their streams a lot)" They have class buffs on Stream because their Cleric can't give them all the buffs. They wouldn't take them, if the Cleric was there giving them the buffs [especially if they're equal] "if you wish to play solo multi-client you can also get buffs" If you're playing solo or multiclienting, it doesn't matter what the buff source is, you have multiple sources by virtue of multi clienting.... "No one is without buffs, no one is a slave to anyone" If you have Clerics with all Buffs, equal to class buffs, they guaranteed will be stat sticks / buff slaves. We know this, because it's been that way for many years before. "everyone has the option to play exactly however they want" If you give 1 Class all buffs on equal terms, they will opt to default expect that class has all buffs so they can spend their skill points on more defensive or damage skills. "and/or fill out with scrolls" If scrolls are equal to buffs, No one will take buffs period. They'll all save their SP spending them on Defense/Damage, and Clerics would only get invited if they needed the healing. I doubt this is what you want. "Solo. Friends. Randos. You make the game what you want it to be and what best suits your needs. It's not really that complex of a concept - full access to everyone in whatever way works best for them." This is just a bunch of word soup and doesn't solve the problem, the one I outlined earlier that you responded to with "tHaTs nOt wHaT I sAiD"

Explain precisely how you think it should work, cause I probly already covered it and you just haven't realized.

have you tried using Sweet Scent.

1: Why spend SP on weaker buffs, if Clerics have all buffs and are better. Result: No one gets buffs [We did this from Evo to NA update] 2: Why spend SP on buffs, if Clerics take all buffs and they're Equal in proportion. Cleric is going to take them no matter what, so save the SP. 3: Every class has their own buffs [and they do] and are BETTER than Cleric buffs. Now you run into the issue of Clerics saying because they only ever had buffs and nothing else to do, they don't have a point. [which is a lie btw, they can do more than buff, they just appealed for 15 years to people who can't be asked to press more than 8 buttons every 15 minutes]. In short. You can't win. Either clerics lose their special little "I'm important sticker" and play on equal terms with everyone else, with a few buffs to their DPS options and a rework to active healing, or they remain over-powered and no one takes any buffs, nor plays the game at all, logs out, if they can't find a Cleric to buff them,. Which is bad for business. That is unless you have so ultra giga-brain move that some how can make DPS take their buffs, while Clerics also take their buffs whilst neither remove the importance of the other. Tip: There is 1 solution, and I'll be impressed if anyone guesses it.

What?

Just to give a minor correction, I think you should also be given rested EXP while logged off in a lower level map~ I didn't make that clear

So today while I was watching HazDS stream, they brought up experience rates, and the topic included rested EXP. HazDS mentioned that in the game he was referencing, you could say sit in a shop, and accumulate rested experience bonus, say up to twice the normal rate for an hour. This led me to think, how about instead of AFKing in a Shop or Town, you could AFK in maps of a lower level than your character, and THAT would build rested EXP. This could potentially increase the frequency that higher level players are available to assist lower levels or new players with questions, or killing a quest boss they're struggling with, or simply giving them directions to where they need to go. It's a very basic foundation, but it allows for expansion, and could be a way to incorporate helping or being available for new/low level players.

One of a kind, unique items aren't feasible. Period.

Pushing this back up to refresh the visibility and get more takes on it.

If it's an GA group, the leader can remove individuals. I thought the party system also had the option to kick someone from the party. I don't see how leeching should even enter this conversation about Disconnection protection. Why are you guys muddying up a decent and simple proposal with this drama.

Sounds like a good idea to me. A standard across the industry, I see no reason why it shouldn't be applied here.

There's nothing wrong or illegal with creating a spiritual successor to a game, so long as you understand how intellectual property rights are managed, and don't violate them. This means you can't use Trademarked terms, like Names etc, or Copyright material, such as code, 3D models, textures, animation files, UI images, so forth. In some regards, even simply being too similar, can net you a fine as it'll go to a court and ruled on by looking at the intent of creating such a similar product. If it was done to take away from the profits of a currently held, running, or protected product, you'll likely get slapped with a fine and a cease and desist letter. [The fine would indeed be Copyright Infringement] As for that project, last I looked at it, it was some models rigged via a free online site and assets exported and converted, then added directly into Unreal in a simple game scene. Some UI copy pasted or simple base-level UE asset UIs. There was undeniably "some" work done, but it lacked the mountains it would need [or it did not show it]. Either way, copying someone else's product is always a risk. Doesn't matter how small it is. If you get caught and someone feels like making an example of you, it's still illegal, and they can still fine you. Won't matter how much you dance around it, the law is the law and your emotional opinions on it don't change that. You could try to get those laws changed [and I'd back up copyright reform cause it's ancient by todays standards]. But until it's changed, excusing it was "well someone else did it" isn't a good excuse and sets a bad example.

There's been a few topics, one recent, that proposed this idea alongside many comments in the Discord. I want to address the Logistical nightmare, problems, and hurdles associated with this notion. First Off: Increased Licensing and Regulatory Issues. Not only would a stupid licensing a product from an IP holder need to gain additional licensing to publish new works [that would need to bear up to the scrutiny of the licenser], by endeavoring to make a new product; you would open yourself to the potential of needing to submit for increased business permits, operation permits, and regulatory inspections for things like ESRB and the like. Apart from governmental regulation and oversight, you'd have the IP Holders scrutiny that your new product doesn't violate the their requirements [typically that you're not besmirching the image of their product or name, damaging it in any way they deem] to contend with and adhere to. Ground Work: Before you can even start doing what most people might conclude, that being making the new game engine; you actually have to start even more conceptually. You need to understand just about everything that you want that engine to do for your game. What type of physics will it have. What level of detail. How do you want to handle loading of data. Where is data stored and loaded from. Encoding. What scripting languages do you want to use. and many, many more factors. Once you've nailed down the mechanical bases you move onto- The Foundation: So you know all the functions and features handled by or through the engine. Pre-built, or Custom. I'm going to leave this section SIGNIFICANTLY stripped down, because there's a lot of debate between which is better and why, for who and so on. But know, an entire thesis could be writ on this one section alone. Narrative: Key to designing any immersive world, key to the suspension of disbelief and feeling connected to the game, is the Narrative. What does this world look like. Who lives here. How do people travel. How do they engage with each other. What type of technology to they have access to. What are their societies like. What's the ecology of the biomes. What types of flora and fauna exist. What types of trouble or conflict do the peoples face. All of these things and many more are deeply important to giving legitimacy and guidance to how game mechanics and interactions get chosen and designed. You need, an absolute must, to have a suitably strong understanding of the world you're attempting to build. There is NO exception for an RPG genre to not do this step. After months, potentially year or years+ you're ready to start actually creating product. Engine: Based off your chosen designs and choices, you now labor away at creation thousands, or tens of thousands of lines of code to build the engine. The engine being the brains of the entire operations and calculations. It's the foreman of the entire site. Network and Database: Now that you have an engine, you need something to store your data in. Local storage for some things, network storage for others. Authentication via a network authorized machine/server. Verification of computations or lost data. Settings saved on the network incase of hardware failure and more. Render Pipeline: This is required to render your graphics. If you have any images on the screen and your game isn't running in a command prompt, you'll need a renderer. You have many many considerations. Legacy materials, PBR? Ambient Occlusion? Depth of Field. Raytracing? Emissive lights. Refraction? Subsurface scattering! The list is exhaustive to consider it's breadth and scope. But you can't skip this. Style, Assets, World: You need to establish a style, concepts for the assets, and draft your world. NOW, we're getting into where ROSE Next-gen starts to take shape. ROSE has a style you can already pull from. Concepts exist for designs, and how the worlds scale and look are established in a rudimentary way. The issue is you need to redo it all from scratch. Higher resolution models, higher resolution and fidelity textures. More dense foliage and ground clutter. More populated areas with bustling cities and streets. Redesigned UI [User Interface] All requiring new assets. This, is probably the most expensive and time consuming part. Getting ALL the art you need. Story & Narrative: How this handled is unique to each game. But a prime narrative that propels players through the world with purpose is key. Even if some players elect to not partake, it is vital for those who expressly play games for the immersive experience and story. Systems: You have your world, your engine, your assets and your renderer. Now you need to code and implement your mechanics, physics, and UX [User Experience]. These go all the way down to how it feels to get a piece of gear, up to how a character behaves when force physics are applied. Additionally, how does gearing work. Upgrades. Do you have a currency and if so how does it work/what role does it play/ what can you get with it. Are there other systems that need to be implemented like durability, repairs, socketing, enchanting, honing, refining, mastering, crafting, so on. Those all need to be designed and implemented. Inspection: Product will have had oversight at every step of the project: however is product is a licensed product the licenser any any investors will want projections, demonstrations, and significant amounts of confirming data to continue the project. [IF approved] Closed Alpha Test[s]: Internal testing of every major function, aspect, and interaction. Typically carried out by the development team themselves. Can take many passes / phases. The goal is to assess that the intended playstyles, features and general intended design are intact and present. Bug Fixing: Required intermittently between internal alpha test sessions. Alpha[s]: Selected play testers from outside the Development team scrutinize the initial product. Bug Fixing: Return to bug fixing steps to address issues and problems found by the player testers and their reports. Multiple passes may be required for this step and the step before. Beta: Refining and more generalized open engagement to produce a greater sample size and more eyes to reduce escape rate of issues and defects. Continued Bug Fixing: Self explanatory at this point, but the step itself exists and therefore isn't omitted. Open Beta: Typically the last step of the testing cycle before launch. Typically concludes of testing sessions such as Stability test, integrity tests, stress testing servers and so forth. Also good time to collect engagement data and satisfaction reports. Release: The product releases. Post Release: Having been started back in the Story and Narrative section of this, continued development must continue to adhere to the steps of Story and Narrative through to internal testing and bug fixing for future content releases, patches and expansions. And there you have it. This was not an exhaustive or nuanced take on every single aspect, but it does paint a clear enough picture that "Just make ROSE 2 obviously" isn't in anyway as easy and speaking it into existence. It is a truly massive undertaking, even with a previous IP and product to pull from, the sheer volume of work itself is truly extraordinary, particularly for a smaller or independent design firm to take on. Hopefully this sheds some light on why it just aint so simple. Cheers. [I am not proof reading this]

There was nothing wrong with how gems were functioning. The only change I'd suggest is making then downgrade 1 tier, if you remove them from a socket. That should be enough of a deterrence, without destroying the gem. And a sink for materials so those materials don't because valueless. Clean, easy, simple.