Bobbity

Passing foot traffic = lots of customers. We'd basically be affecting people's sales (maybe forcing a higher pricepoint on basic goods) if we forced them to another map. lazy's idea of switching shop visbility on and off could still work fine if we allowed advertising on noticeboards in Junon Polis (by Eva etc.). Players could even buy city-wide or even server-wide trade chat advertising. Yes, that's right: players can pay the server for advertising their ingame goods and services. Cha-CHING! Ofc you'd need someone to curate those ads beforehand.

I'm all for consistency. We can avoid any confusion by making sure the relevant itemslot for a particular item is clearly highlighted. Something like that, anyway. Newbie-friendliness.

Speaking as an arti, if your only role in the party is luring then it's (currently) MUCH EASIER keeping stocked on arrows than it is bullets or shells. I can literally craft arrows in my sleep from stuff I find on the floor in almost any map. In fact, I have crafted arrows in my sleep. I cannot do the same for bullets and shells. So, currently, there's a need to keep bullets/shells and arrows separate. Until we can make more basic types of bullets and shells or artis don't lure anymore, that need will remain. With regards to the different UI layouts, why not all 3+?

It's true we can dual-client, just that we want to optimize the game so that dualclienting has a niche use case at best. We definitely want to maintain server health for everyone's sake, so we can't be too compassionate. if someone is part of the same party and gets exp and loot while not even ingame then that's a problem and would invite further problems. I'd oppose that just on principle. However, if someone is only nominally part of the party while being dc'd from the server (due to externalities, not the server closing the connection by force) and NOT getting exp or loot, I don't see the problem. When they log back in, maybe they 'cleared some content' but did they really profit? I don't see how the latter scenario is a viable business opportunity. Well, not until we have deep questlines and long chain quests that require certain instances to be completed at different difficulties to progress our skill trees or something (think advancing our Ascendancies in the Lord's Labyrinth from PoE.) It's definitely, as you said earlier, about not letting people just leech off the system. Not online = no loot, no exp, no achievement. Still part of the party, though, and we love you, etc etc.

More options and greater granularity = good stuff. I'd prefer to switch between pic 1 and pic 3 rather than pic 1, 2 and 3. The third gives all necessary info whereas the second pic still leaves room for confusion.

Surely whether the AFKer gets to leech off the system is up to the party leader, not so? I feel this needs more granularity, like a (majority pass) votekick feature if the Party Leader refuses. I dunno, the one who dc'd won't get exp or loot anyway, so we should consider cases where people won't be able to log back in within 5 - 15 minutes (as happens in countries, provinces and cantons with rolling blackouts and high-jitter/high-contention telecoms.) Added features are cool! Accommodating the disenfranchised is also compassionate. How do you guys feel about that?

Okay, so we have a Dealer that could've been either an artisan or a bourg but instead became a sniper. Like you said it's a glass cannon: high-impact long-range auto-attacks and presumably also very long-range nukes with no escape technique. We also have a Muse that could've become an fs, bc or even a mage of whatever mastery but instead forsook weapons to gain... qigong? Presumably there's some sort of AOE autoattack or autocast-type attack at melee range with RNG-based heals proccing or some sort of lifesteal passive that even katars don't have. Then there's the gambler... A class that has an entire skill tree based around RNG. I don't know if we even have a god in this pantheon whose Authority is luck, but if there is, this particular class would be more devout than any cleric. As far as I know, bourgs already rely on RNG for drops, though. I'll be brutally honest with you: these aren't unlikely to ever be implemented but they're solutions looking for problems. Some feel more like intersectional multiclassing between existing classes rather than additional second job classes. The Sniper is a hawker without stealth, slow or snare and with a glaring artificial weakness of no short-range capability. He can't kite without a slow or snare. I hope he can still craft a concussion grenade because he's going to need it! (On that note, please make grenades good again, ty.) Unless he can pop somebody from across the map, he's far less useful than a mage with cast-range gems. The gambler is a one-note ill-defined caricature of throwing money at problems to make them go away and the monk needs a lot of brainstorming to make sense within ROSE. The monk also, as was said earlier, resembles a katar-less katar. Too much overlap. Good job stimulating the dev team's creative juices, though. I can tell Garnet's munching on this already. What you said about the Diablo skill tree makes sense as well.

Oh, wow, and I even read that topic back when. Never mind, it's mostly a wall of text for me today. ty @TheShredr. I feel like there will be space for additional tier-2 classes (tier-0 being Visitor, of course) once people resolve / accept (resolve themselves to?) the whole issue with leveling for all classes. There has to be some cost to wielding the power of a god to heal other players/yourself and even bring them back from the dead (clerics) or having the ability to one/two-shot other classes with Stealth + physical and DoT DPS (hawkers). That cost is inequality. Technically, there's ALREADY space for additional tier-2 classes but if proposed you'd need to break them down properly with proposed additions / changes to the base skill tree. Let's talk about this Sniper of yours @namcost. It comes from the Dealer class. I'm assuming it focuses on Sniping. What does its skill tree look like? Does it have Stealth or some camouflage skill? Damage reduction? Some special mini-map? Special ammo? What's the leveling experience expected to be like? If it's pure PvP, do you expect the Sniper named Edie Brickell to just leech off a party of their circle of friends until they notice you just AFK? Until they quit and give up? What does a Sniper offer a party? Or is there something interesting Snipers have where they can just live off the land in PvE? While you do that, I want to read about a similar (actually even more detailed!) breakdown of the Monk class. I still don't get why anyone would pick these classes; they seem redundant at this time.

Could you break down these other classes for me, please? I think I know what you mean by paladin and berserker, but just outline what you visualize when you talk about the others (e.g. theme, purpose, defining skill)

How I see it is, we don't want resets trivializing the game - and that's easily managed with making classes distinctive and encouraging masteries/specializations, implementing truly unique skills and weapons (as in, ONE ONLY like in Lords of Magic), having knowledgeable players as mentors etc. That's not the same as trivial resets ingame, which is also managable through reset cooldowns or, IMO better yet, quest tokens. Even a noob could farm up tokens for a reset this way. Avatar is right that the game won't break, although some classes could definitely benefit more than others. A short aside: Imagine a dungeon where 3 paths exist for progression, one can only be accessed by a mechanism triggerable by a character with super-high cast/attack range that deals a higher than threshold value fire damage per second. Now, imagine your party actually has such a character, a pyromage specialized in pure fire damage and boosted with cast range passives and/or gems. The other paths are equally valid but offer different ways to progress (maybe easier for parties lacking a cleric / offers substantially more of one drop at the expense of virtual absence of the rest etc.) This pyromage might be a total glass cannon that can cast Explosion once a day but is looked after by their party specifically for their utility in this dungeon in particular. Having more and more distinct options enables that sort of gameplay.

I reckon with enough options we'll see use for 'farmers' in PvP. Definitely won't be the same use as classes / toons specifically hard-geared for mainstream PvP. This all ties back into making classes more of what they already are with more flexibility and also more thematic.

What about no cooldown but with quest-received tokens? Path of Exile uses orbs of regret, a farmable and pseudo-craftable item (currency in their barter economy) to reset a physical path through their skill tree. What about farming up tokens through quests to reset as much as you like at later convenience but costing effort in the here and now?

Switching classes isn't something we can do right now anyway, so I definitely am not suggesting that. However, there should be a degree of fluidity available considering many things have changed in the 15+ years of Rose. Sorry, I feel like you're misreading me. I didn't see any class changing talked about, neither did I suggest it. Well, it's not outside the realm of possibility, and ofc PoE encourages bleedover/hybridization of classes due to the skill tree (at cost, of course) so you might've thought I meant that when I mentioned that game. What I meant was that class SPECIALIZATION and more options in the class skill tree (and other options outside that) could help offer the fluidity new players and iRose returners need. I dunno, what do you guys think?

Switching classes isn't something we can do right now anyway, so I definitely am not suggesting that. However, there should be a degree of fluidity available considering many things have changed in the 15+ years of Rose.

Yes, definitely doing what we've always done will get us what we've always gotten, etc. We have the means to think of better ways and the time to do it. Well, I hope we have time; the dev team seems to be knee-deep in all sorts of things, so who knows when release will be. I'm reminded of Path of Exile's Yggdrasil-like skill tree (skilldrassil, if you like). It's not something I'd like to see in Rose Online but it offers some interesting insights in what could be done. (No, it's not just the complexity or the fluidity...) Classes SHOULD feel like what we picked them for. A scout should feel like scout and, to varying degrees satisfy player scout wish fulfilment fantasies, etc. I reckon making classes more distinctive with greater options should help in reducing the need for skill resets while keeping the reset option *relatively* accessible.

The OP's post suggested using zulie as a metric and both HB and Owlchemist are correct that this should technically not be a problem from the start. Managed well, the economy should be okay with it. Of course, something less fluid like quests could perhaps work better. Playing in sandbox mode with characters as blank canvases isn't roleplay, especially in a roleplay game that uses distinct classes. Allowing me for a moment to be subjective, it doesn't feel like roleplay. We definitely want to have SOME level of barrier, something that preserves the distinctions between classes. We shouldn't just rely on artificial scarcity of skill points, zulie and time only. I hope Rednim thinks outside the box here. @OwlchemistVile@Wondertje Your input is, as always, informed and enlightening. However, turning a forum thread into a hostile personal conversation is neither of those. Please use the forum direct messaging or other means to communicate your personal conversation. We shouldn't have to waste moderator time on cleaning up posts when this isn't our first rodeo. Thanks, guys! Keep it coming!

Hello, everyone. This suggestion provides clerics with a unique skill that I might've hinted at before for saving parties. Lets get into it. Hostile units near the caster are not aggravated unless attacked or affected by a spell. Caster assumes a seated meditative position and is unable to attack or cast spells. Duration: Indefinite (emote), 5 seconds fade time after breaking meditation. Radius: 36 meters Cooldown: 50 seconds Cost: 50% of caster's max MP Advantages: - Can, with good timing, reliably resurrect an entire team from teamwipe - Allows clerics (Muses too?) to navigate and explore terrain even stealthed characters cannot. Problems: - Use-case is limited - Requires a new emote

There was a long discussion about this on Discord before this forum came into being. This topic is contentious. Why? Differences in game philosophy. Some believe that lowering barriers to resetting skills and stats promotes party play ( as in, playing with actual IRL friends ). Others felt that there should be value in being forced to min-max your stats and skills. The effort alone! A few people felt that (secretly) knowing someone's stats and skill build allowed them to plan ahead for ways to counter them in PvP or something. Re: the last thing - the game lacks the layers of mechanics to make 'knowing someone's build' valuable info. Most builds are meta or close to meta. We don't have hidden classes, truly unique skills etc. In fact, some of those P2W IM skills could be modified into Unique/Hidden skills, I reckon. Right now, this particular argument holds no water. Re: the second-last view - there is value in this effort but it's artificial value. That value exists only for as long as the artificial barriers to resetting are high. More on this in the next paragraph. Re: the first view - It's true that not punishing players and letting them freely mess about with their stats and skills can make for a fun time, but with every layer of adversity we remove, gameplay becomes less memorable and less interesting. For those of you who've seen the videos linked in the updates about adversity in games, that's basically the argument. We need to establish a workable balance between adversity and freedom of choice. Now, you'd think zulie would be a good answer for this, as zulie is basically liquid effort. Effort converted into tradeable currency. Unfortunately, if we still have a stagnant economy in future getting 1 billion zulie "zulie pls" from bored veterans idling in Junon market with theirCGs (looking at you, HoneyBuns) or zulie sellers won't be as big of an obstacle as you're thinking. So, this could be doable if we figure out everything attached to using zulie as a conversion mechanic as well as explore other mechanics.

Right, so THIS post suggested some of what I've outlined here. Didn't see that.

Yeah, I think there were two attacks: one a pseudo-attack that mini-stunned, and the actual snipe. As sniping has such a long range, I don't know if anything more than stun+slow is balanced. I guess it'd depend on the duration of the status effects. If there were bullets that dropped your MDEF for 4 seconds vs the stun that only lasts maybe 0.7 sec at most, coupled with a 2 sec slow, that shouldn't be too OP. We need to consider the worst-case scenario of chain snipes, thus stun-lock, perma-debuffed, perma-slowed. We obviously don't want that to happen as that'd become the new rigid meta for PvP. Maybe different max durations for PvP than PvE?

There are dungeons and then there are DUNGEONS. Random instanced low-effort dungeons spice things up a bit, vs something you have to actually organize, plan and queue for. I reckon these can co-exist for all our benefit without pressuring the devs.

I wonder if this skill should be affected by cast range modifiers like gems or not. If this were to be implemented, being sniped from across the map would be a real hazard in PvP. You'd have to consider the terrain for possible hiding spots, have to send out hawkers to surveil, keep an eye on your HP during teamfights and, for muses, the cooldown of your Mana Shield. On the other hand, the more snipers in a team's backline, the fewer frontliners you have tanking and dealing stable DPS.

CGs could totally be a levelling path, both as a constructed summon and as a piloted mech. If the unique feature of CGs was that their physical attack dealt area of effect damage, that would offer considerable value in teamfights and farming. Upgrades would max this value but would have to be costly in terms of mats, effort and likely even fuel as a necessary trade-off. Another feature of CGs is that, as machines relying on their own combat stats, piloting one is a viable option for squishy players with souffle-like DEF and HP like that of a carrot cake. Maybe a summoner cleric could use one equipped with high DEF and MS to keep up with their dragons in densely-populated dungeons. At the same time, CG-equipped players could off-tank if equipped with a Taunt module or careful use of a stun CG skill. PvP doesn't just mean going ballistic on each other - I see something like a Mario Kart event/arena being where carts and CG shine for this. We might have to blur the distinction between them, even. Having said that, depending on their baseline featureset, we could use CGs where carts are undesirable (maybe carts offer very high movespeed but trash defense, limited offense and poor upgradeability vs CGs with poor-to-decent movespeed, unparalleled defense, medium-to-high offense and a full upgrade path.) Players could perhaps rent very basic CGs from the NPCs in the Gorge of Silence and Muris for n zulies a day for greater accessibility. The CG is of course remotely disabled when the license is not renewed. Definitely a way to lure in the unsuspecting customer for rent-to-own. Possible distinctive features: - AOE right-click (left-click) for teamfights and farm - Protective armor for squishy players - Possible off-tanking Fun stuff: - Mario Kartness on Dolphin Island and other maps - Why craft when you can rent! The talk of upgradability also makes me wonder whether mounts should have an upgrade path too. Could a muse's flying carpet be upgraded to a better model with higher movespeed? Something to think about.

At this time, clerics have the ability to summon phantom swords, earth elementals, ice dragons, flame dragons, salamander flames, mana flames and bonfires. Others have suggested giving these summons appropriate abilities (slows, damage over time, taunts etc.), and I echo those suggestions. I believe those calls have even found a warm reception. In addition to these though, I'd like to distinguish clerics (and their muse prototypes) from other classes in giving them something for free: a free spirit sword. Yes, that's right. On completing the Muse job quest, I'd like muses to gain a free pre-learned skill called Summon Spirit Sword/Phantom Sword. This removes the floating sword summon from the summon skill tree. The summon could even have its own sub-tree with skills like sharing damage received by the caster, chance to counterattack with a critical attack, an aura that increases accuracy and critical attack damage, and so on. The sword can grow in strength and ability over time if nourished by the muse/cleric with kills and/or devotion to the muse's god. Why? - Streamlines the damage-dealing component of leveling for muses, so no choice is forced upon them between support and dealing SOME damage. - Gives clerics something to build on in the lategame/endgame. Problems with this: - Why should Muses get free stuff? Do they just suck? I don't understand the favoritism here!? Is your daughter a muse? Is this nepotism? - Forces clerics to have faith in a god. Previously, Faith was simply the result of a series of quests and has little to no impact on the game. However, involving an almost never-before-used concept into the redesign of a controversial class seems interesting. Let's see where we can go with this with enough thought and feedback. - Implementation of Faith from early-game on will need more (good quality) questlines - Other stuff I can't think of right now.

Hawker players tended to get one 'free' summon from their skill tree and another from a Unique skill book. These skill points are wasted as these summons are relatively one-dimensional, squishy and even weak. Mere distractions, even. Could we change this? What if we had an option for the player to go hard on becoming beastmasters? Basically, the summoner variant of their normal playstyle. We could have 2 major options: - Quest-based Summon - only one summon 'charmed' from the field that grows over time. Loyalty increases with food and rest, decreases with deaths and neglect. Can become a mount. Can eventually equip items (once quest is completed). Items have dura etc. (Basically a familiar.) Does not impact summon gauge. -Ad hoc summoning - 'Tame' skill - gets many familiars (based on summon gauge) tamed from the field, loyalty value that only decreases. Abandons caster when loyalty reaches critical value (any death, neglect). Cannot be used as mounts. Cannot equip items. The sub-skilltree could have various parameters influencing active skills available to the beast. With regard to the familiar-type summon, summons could increase in combat stats based on their feed, i.e. one could develop a familiar for speed, vitality (HP), durability (DEF) and so on based on the types of food one gives them. There could also be breeding skills to grow a special bloodline of familiar. Maybe an economic opportunity if we could put these monsters in capsules and sell them to other players? Advantages: - Not too demanding in terms of skill points consumed, tbh. - It offers a more diverse playstyle that can keep players engaged well into the endgame. Problems: - Needs to be properly thought out before implementation as it easily risks imbalancing the classes - Could become the de facto meta for hawkers, esp. scouts if no other diversity is found in their builds. - Too similar to another suggestion.