Bobbity

You don't need crit to take out a hawker, you just need consistently high accuracy for attacks, zoning and good CC. EDIT: I still don't see how the party is compromised. Are you implying that we've moved to a forced meta? Because we were ALREADY IN A FORCED META. For years.

Dealers are known for being made of papier mache. That's their thing. They're Visitors with guns. Their unique advantage is, much like the Batman, prep time. They get to prep pre-battle with armor, weapons and HOPEFULLY IF THE DEVS IMPLEMENT IT, landmines/proximity mines/sentries. I see no problem with having a Dealer that can die to one stun+DoT combo if he's laid a honeycombed mesh of explosives all over the field. EDIT: Do you want everyone to just stand on the field and pewpew each other until whoever has the most HP/DEF/AP is left standing? Because that sounds like a trash pserver to me. Diversity in playstyles is what we should be moving towards.

Artisans are the crafter class, there is no gainsaying or doubting that. They support everyone by turning loot, zulie and mana into items that boost the baseline combat stats of the party. Clerics support by restoring resource stats (health, mana) and boosting combat stats temporarily through the use of mana. Knights tank, champions and raiders deal damage to mob swarms and bosses, scouts scout, pick off specific targets and deal damage to bosses from a (relatively) safe distance. We all know these roles; we've played them for years after all. Yet, there's something to be said for a small bit of multiclassing. Not effortless, not free as in 'core component of the skill tree by default'. It's as @Zerorsaid, a bit of an upgrade to what's possible. If a scout is in need of, say, quality arrows and has neither the zulie nor the friendship of an artisan BUT has just enough trash loot to craft basic arrows, I say let them craft their arrows. If they want to upgrade that skill, let them upgrade it - at a higher cost. This could even be an IM skill. A very, very specific IM skill that allows for crafting of more types of arrows per skill level. Still only what any average Joe Artisan can do as easily as pressing a button. Just the fact that it's an IM skill means not everyone will know it and no-one will suspect that your scout knows this skill. It allows for greater sustain in the field for the midgame. (Assumedly, lategame scouts have resources to buy NPC arrows and know at least one artisan that will sell them arrows that proc effects or have elemental affinities.) The obvious worry is that hawkers could replace artisans as fletchers. You guys forget that no hawker will ever have as much CON as a max CON artisan. They don't have crafting hammers. Any scout or raider that goes hard on maxing out their CON is going for broke on the idea of being a crafter. Do you see this being a common phenomenon in the community? I don't. If we let hawkers craft scrolls as special as what was suggested, we'll have a problem, though. After all, artisans don't have this ability. This gives hawkers an incredibly useful skill, essentially the inferior version of a WoW Warlock's portal ability. Not only that, but it also makes people wonder if such an ability doesn't fit the muse class more. So, lore-wise this part of the suggestion makes perfect sense. In terms of gameplay, it's not as clear-cut. EDIT: This isn't a pserver, so no-one will have infinite skill points. Every arti will focus on what's most profitable/useful to craft. This creates space for those who just want that one thing but aren't being provided for by the invisible hand of the market. How could this work for muses? No-one knows as the cleric class is a bone of contention. But going with what was said earlier, the devil is in the details. Maybe enchanting would only replace the substats of any given item if the enchantment is superior. Adding stats on top of substats and mainstats could be problematic. That's something for the devs to think about, though. TL;DR: If some other class wants to compete with artisans in terms of crafting, let them try. If they want to craft things unique to their class, let the devs work out the game balance. Artisans will always be the go-to for crafting.

Hi, Can we change the lvl 104 spear Gungnir's name to Gungnir (Fake) or Gae Bolg or something? I feel it's vaguely disrespectful to have a weapon as legendary as the Allfather's runespear be available to Visitors that have just barely chosen their second job. Maybe have Gungnir as an endgame Unique drop or quest reward. (Or both? A Unique craftable in parts???) With accompanying high-end accuracy, of course. We could do something similar for similarly named items.

What kind of enchantments though? Can you give an example? Not sure soldiers can make bank with consumables, tbh. Most soldiers are meatheads who spend most of their time doing dg and PvP. Maybe they could do breeding of permanent pets instead? Or breaking in mobs to turn them into pets and/or mounts, maybe.

Could we maybe integrate the suggested pinging feature with this: and make it more rich (different types of pinging like 'Let's go here', 'Fight here', 'Avoid this', 'Help' etc.)?

Yeah, I remember that was a thing for a while. Very annoying. I can't recall if that became a standard for anybody since I stopped doing organized PvP for the last few years of NA.

Parties don't rely on mage debuffs to take down a boss, though... EDIT: Almost every class has a debuff of some sort. You could, of course, make a CHA-INT mage with awesome debuffs but it wouldn't automatically be the norm. That's not the meta. But buffslave clerics are the meta. So much so that people refuse to explore alternatives or consider how buffing Visitor base stats affects that meta.

For efficiency's sake, in a game where fire-and-forget buffs exist buffslavery is the ideal, the preferred, the go-to. Considering for how long we've been playing like this, even if alternatives exist alongside buffs, we will choose buffslavery. With this in mind we should move away from buffs entirely. I don't think we're quite ready for that yet but that's where we're moving towards. Because buffslavery is a stupid systemic imbalance symptomatic of design failure. Yes, it feels good to buff newbies. I've mentioned this before. It feels really, really good. Some people are basing their decision to play again solely on whether they will get that feeling again. I won't dismiss that nostalgia; instead, I reckon we can design away problems caused by it. Buffs could exist but maybe their efficacy would only be highest on lowbie targets; when cast by a max level max CHA Cleric maybe they only give flat number boosts and those don't stack with whatever the alternative to buffs are. (I suggest auras like those from my latest cleric suggestion linked in this thread.) So, the higher-level your target, the less useful your buffs are, to the point where equal-level targets won't even bother asking for them. Does this accommodate being a buff-'god', worshipped by the ignorant unwashed masses of noobdom?

The only passives I spoke of are Holy Ground and the ones that relate to mana reservation and would thus affect the mana reservation of the auras. Is that what you meant? (The auras themselves are active cast.) EDIT: I'm not sure you understand how mana reservation works, so I'll try to explain: if skill A reserves 15% of your mana pool and your mana pool is, say 2200 MP, your mana pool after activating skill A will be 2200 - 330 = 1870. In other words your max mana after activating skill A would be 1870. You will regenerate mana up to 1870 and your mana shield will be based off of that 1870 MP. Skill B would shrink your mana pool by another x% and so on. Halo of Mentality would add more MP to the mana pool, yes, but the regen doesn't increase the total mana pool size. Re: summons, many people have made suggestions about those, even me. I expect the devs will do something more useful there when they figure out what works well. I know they've been interested in that for a while. That said, of all the summons, the swords were the most efficient/had highest ROI in terms of mana spent for DPS done. I expect they'll do better in future, though. Necromancy would be a good addition but hard to figure out where to fit into the lore without having to write a LOT more lore and questlines. They could start from Harin's questline, of course.

You may assume that anything I haven't discussed is as it was on last sight. So, it's really buffs that were changed to auras and some special skills added. The core role is still support but there isn't such a sharp divide between fs and bc anymore. Muses and clerics have more sources of exp and are capable from the start. Play is more active and active play is rewarded. Clerics also become more useful in dg and arena PvP.

I don't support what we'll get when EA is deployed; I fancy something more interesting. Please see my suggestion for more details.

I, too agree with @cyaneyedlion. Which post? But seriously though: imagine being a cleric of the old meta. Your DPS is pitiful, your movespeed is mediocre and you are either made of papier mache, Raditz or glass. All that people want from you is buffs every t minutes. Inbetween buffing intervals you don't even exist except as the spiritual anchor for your salamander and/or mana flames. Maybe a heal every once in a while. Did someone die? Not their fault for being out of position, for being reckless, for aggroing too many mobs. Somehow, it's your fault. Did everybody die? Well, you've got to take care of that, don't you? A thankless job on average. Noobs rejoice when they see you, of course. To them, you are the Hand of God, shading them from the pitiless sun on a day when there is no other shade. But to everyone else you're a dispenser. A vending machine. I could go on but those of you who feel that there IS NO OTHER PATH ARE NOT SEEING THE ENTIRE PICTURE. The system was rigged and imbalanced from the get-go. ROSE was never meant to be as complicated as it has become. As a result, we're stuck with a systemic imbalance so severe it's plagued the game for nigh-on a decade. It's literally become something delaying release. We need to break free.

With all relevant passives skilled, you could have 4 up. Maybe 5 if a mana reservation gem was a thing, but you'd still definitely have no mana for a mana shield. I actually like that buffing is now subject to interpersonal dynamics instead of a required action. Brutal clans will abuse clerics and have many. Friendly clans will cherish and protecc their beloved clerics. Poor clans won't be able to afford clerics losing that much exp just for buffs. The truth is a living cleric is more directly useful than a dead one as auras at max stacks are very strong - but buffs are very useful as they are fire-and-forget for as many units as you can gather. In other words, auras are preferable for a party where the cleric is always nearby and buffs are preferable for arenas that require high mobility like AA, CD etc. So, this naturally leads to a dynamic of tension. There'd be an arms race to unlocking the Blessing skill. As long as each class has its own buff and clerics have a different MAIN mechanic (paired with a costly alternate buff mechanic), I feel that live clerics will be prioritized over dead ones. Most people will do their class buff, it'll be strong, and clerics will handle the rest. Rereading this, I realized I left out Halo of Trinity (+as, +ms, +dodge rate) which is the upgrade to the muse skill Halo of Duality. Nvm. +crit and +acc are buffs left for dealers to give for now since we have no indication from the devs regarding helping Dealer earlygame (no landmines, mini-summons or anything like that). If that changes, I'll add one or the other to Halo of Adamant.

Hmm, well, these skills could stand a good bit of tweaking. You're very right though, we didn't choose the buff life, the buff life chose us. It's all we've known. However, I feel that different mechanics could change us, given time. I must emphasize that Martyrdom and especially Avatar are special skills (which is one of the reasons they use Faith and not mana to activate). They aren't standard skills and parties shouldn't expect clerics to cast them on a whim. The exp costs are there to offset their potency and inhibit casual use and abuse. The standard builds will usually be auras, mana shield, DPS passives like Wand Weaving/Cleric's Intensity and the usual heals and purges. While I think of ways to make these skills more palatable, have a look at the auras I mentioned before: Halo of Vitality - +hp, +hp regen (flat value and percentage) Halo of Mentality - +mp, +mp regen (flat value and percentage) Halo of Frugality - spell cd - 5 to 25% Halo of Duality - +as, +ms (flat value) Halo of Adamant - +DEF, +AP (flat value and percentage) Remember, each aura reserves mana (% of the mana pool) so there's no way all of these could be active at the same time; they'd have to be activated strategically.

Thanks for the reply and comments. If we stick to the buff meta then yes, this would be a ridiculous idea. Essentially, we're moving from noob clerics without means and reliant on their few piddling auras and heals to massive Gandalf-level combatants who can go toe-to-toe with bosses and entire teams for a while - as well as pure fs clerics that simply heal and purge remotely via their shrines. For clerics to use suicide just to buff is silly. At the same time, a cleric that has activated the ROSE version of Heroic Demise isn't going to steamroll and win an AA all by theirself. So, the meta doesn't revolve around or depend on clerics killing themselves all the time. (At least, one hopes.) Re: Path of Beauty "Yo, dude, kys for us." "W-What?" "We'll make it worth your while." I plan to have clerics suffer negative exp upon death so they can lose level and even go down in tier if they try to abuse this. Not even those who dual-client to attempt buffslavery would willingly level their cleric to 99% of their level just to die just so they can have superbuffs - all the while the cleric is lying there, dead, not gaining that exp. That's inefficient considering clerics are more useful alive than dead. Note that party exp (and exp while in parties) and Cleric quests will be the main source of cleric's exp revenue, so this is not feasible. That said, I'd like to modify this in future, so the shrine becomes a source of (mediocre) buffs that the party prays at to get. (Still haven't figured out a decent way to do this yet.) Re: Martyrdom Tier 5 cannot have its tier raised beyond the maximum but T5 clerics do gain the combat steroids. This skill should use the Faith/Devotion resource that I could've sworn I mentioned. Apparently not. Faith is used for Avatar and Martyrdom. Mana is used for other skills. Earlier I mentioned how exp from heals and purges can't be gamed by using jellies and other sources of tiny damage. This passive works similarly. Essentially, the skill diminishingly recognizes minor damage taken from the same unit type for about 5 hits or so before it drops below the threshold required to refresh it. The Martyrdom state should last for about 40 seconds without refresh before leading to death. The Avatar state has around the same duration but has no such restriction. Re: Avatar Avatar is still active. The idea of mindless passive combat boosts the lower your HP is something I'd rather see on axes and katars than clerics. If you're the last one of your party left alive, this offers the potential for you to solo the boss, res your party and finish the dg (in whatever order is available to you). This is one of the reasons clerics use Faith to activate their limit-breaker skills instead of mana. Mana can run out and be replenished easily and even quickly. Faith requires prayer and time to replenish but is only used for these skills. My understanding is that max level chars actually still earn exp, it just doesn't display or have any effect. I could be wrong, though. While Martyrdom and Avatar consume an entire level's exp, Blessing is rather cheap and only restricted by its cooldown period. It also cannot drop you in level or tier but if your exp is at 0.00% you cannot cast the skill. If it's at 0.01% it'll cast a rather useless buff and bring you down to 0% - but you'll still be the same level and tier you were before. Naturally, this doesn't affect your stats and SP. Re: Preach The cleric doesn't get a passive mana regen boost from damage taken, so there's no leeching involved. It simply counts the number of units affected and calcs a mana regen boost factor based on that number for t seconds. Think of it more like the movespeed companion skill clerics have when they activate Mana Shield. In the same way, soldiers that cast Sacrifice should preferably get +DEF and +HP regen for t seconds. No passive leeching involved anywhere (slightly too OP, I think, and more left for knights than clerics.) I might change my mind on this later if such a version of the skill can be balanced. Re: Shrine The distances covered are dictated by the tier of the cleric. A T5 cleric can revive anyone from almost anywhere as long as the shrine recognizes them as a party member. The shrine cannot be used from outside AA, CD or GA dg but can be used to affect members in open-world PvP zones. (Someone suggested using an assembled shrine to revive the cleric that built it. I'm of two minds about this as it requires prayer to activate.) Re: Path of the Cleric Hostiles outside the AOE will naturally be unaffected. What I meant is that hostiles who cannot be affected by Fear due to being of the same (or higher) tier as the caster will be aggro'd onto the cleric instead. A T5 cleric will force an entire chamber of spiders to scram except for the boss who is also T5 and suddenly very irate and obsessed with murdering said cleric. The duration of the spiders running away/drawn to kill will be from, say, 3 seconds minimum boosted to 7 seconds with max CHA. Low enough tier spiders will be Feared for 3+5 = 8 sec (7+5= 12 sec with max CHA) and suffer zaps and zaps. The mob color has no bearing on its tier. As we know, the color of a mob is based on the level difference between the mob and the Visitor (and thus indicates the amount of exp gained from killing it.) For mobs, level generally indicates tier, however. There are some mechanics re: prayer I haven't pinned down yet but I plan to get around to that when they're better formed. Let me know if I've left anything unanswered.

That's quite telling, though - that the champ meta is dominated by 'speardancers'; most people likely use them for their excellent AOE clear capability as part of the leveling/farming meta. That said, what do other soldier subclasses offer? And how does that compare to dual-wielding raiders?

Sharon? Did you mean Harin, Karitte's sister??

By default, knights should have lower sword attack speed than champs for reasons stated by @Avatar. Logically, it's much simpler and easier to execute a fast slash or powerful sweep with a two-hander than when burdened by a shield. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be options to improve this over time through mechanisms other than attack speed gems. We should brainstorm this, though, since it's likely to go where ROSE hasn't gone before.

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Dunno how competitive that Campfire's regen would be, likely It'd be mediocre, almost negligible regen values. RE: artisans - artisans are basically xianxia alchemists + shamans that use runes, thus the no-hands crafting. We manipulate all these mats with pure willpower. (That said, I'm of the opinion that current crafting is too fast and easy; there should be another level of crafting for which artis will need a forge. But that's off-topic.)

So, 300+ players are all going to use 1 fireplace? talk about too many cooks... I figure a muse casting Bonfire's a good start, but we need craftable fires too. This could be a basic skill, a skill gained via an easy quest in AP, Zant or Luxem, or a purchasable skill. Lessee... flint? What can we use for flint? Then of course some tinder and wood. Failing the crafting wouldn't consume the tinder or wood, but it would eventually reduce the flint's dura (or maybe we could just cheat and make it so flint is consumable one-per-use).

Right, so if you main cleric (you know who you are) please provide feedback on this while I have the energy to reply. @Avatar @Thystro @averybee1022 @HoneyBuns

To cook you need a fire, pot/cauldron, herbs and spices as well as some vegetables. To make a fire you need...

Hey! Welcome back! Summoning isn't viable yet but the dev team is definitely in favor of it, so things are looking good. It should definitely turn out to be both interesting and excellent for mid- game and end-game content.