Mana shield needs a major nerf

[Bobbity]

*hugs Daxio a bit* Don't worry, buddy, it'll get balanced eventually. You're right, of course. Exactly how right you are will take a long time and lots of review.

On a side-note: has anyone tested this PvP interaction with mages using normal Mana Shield and not their fortified special? I reckon that'd be incredibly useful data to have. The more data we have of diverse situations, the better. Remember, guys, we're still in EA. It's ALL testing all the time. There's no need for panic and tears.

If Mana Shield can't be balanced through numbers, it'll have to be balanced through other means. Keep thinking of alternatives to it or things that can either directly counter it (stuff like a passive mana-burn effect or a way to disable mana recovery etc.) or things that can complement/supplement the basic Mana Shield.

 

EDIT: Scouts have arrows for everything. Maybe they could get an arrow that punctures your mana pool, so everytime you cast or move, you lose an increasingly large amount of mana and are unable to recover it through pots?

Edited February 1, 2023 by Bobbity
Left out some words again, sigh.

[Daxio]

21 hours ago, Bobbity said:

*hugs Daxio a bit* Don't worry, buddy, it'll get balanced eventually. You're right, of course. Exactly how right you are will take a long time and lots of review.

On a side-note: has anyone tested this PvP interaction with mages using normal Mana Shield and not their fortified special? I reckon that'd be incredibly useful data to have. The more data we have of diverse situations, the better. Remember, guys, we're still in EA. It's ALL testing all the time. There's no need for panic and tears.

If Mana Shield can't be balanced through numbers, it'll have to be balanced through other means. Keep thinking of alternatives to it or things that can either directly counter it (stuff like a passive mana-burn effect or a way to disable mana recovery etc.) or things that can complement/supplement the basic Mana Shield.

 

EDIT: Scouts have arrows for everything. Maybe they could get an arrow that punctures your mana pool, so everytime you cast or move, you lose an increasingly large amount of mana and are unable to recover it through pots?

Well hopefully sooner rather than later, but I guess we will have to be patient  

I am also interested to see what normal mana shield is like compared to their fortified i'll be testing this asap and letting you know

I think a good way to balance things out without actually messing with the skills would be to put charm scaling back to how it use to be and restore the passives in the honor store, this whole skill tree was designed to work with high scaling of course skill type classes are going to be OP now.

The thing I think scout needs is our MSPD bonus back, it's the one thing we use to have over other classes but now it seems almost every other class has good MSPD passives too, with the exception of a couple but that's a topic for another day.

 

[Rjg121705]

Is the mana shield for clerics and mage bug?they can spam it how unfair is that specially with mage need 3-4 people to kill 1 mage spamming only mana shield they have high damage and can thank everything with mana shield this will be mage online if this continue

[Ekiz]

 

For those who thinks mana shield is not OP then tell me guys how can u beat a party of full of mages and clerics and knights?they just keep spamming mana shield when they get ressurected lol..i think this skill should be nerf..look cleric can be more tanky more than knights too in my opinion with that manashield..make cooldown longer lol..thnks i know mages main wont agree but its too op in pvp..i think if u dont nerf this skill all players will switch playing mage ahhaah

just my opinion dont bash me lol

Edited February 5, 2023 by Ekiz

[Paleraider11]

they definitely need to nerf it is isance how strong the mana shield is

[shujin51]

imo just have skill sets be nerfed when going into pvp mode so if wont have any disadvantage in pvm. Make a description on how the effects applies when a player is involved so WE know what it aktually does in pvp and in pvm. These vague descriptions need to go. Also taunting should only work for pvm or make it a 1second move.

Edited February 7, 2023 by shujin51

[Bobbity]

Maybe:

- Add 10 seconds of 75% Taunt resistance after being Taunted to prevent a Taunt-lock

- Remove Fortified Mana Shield as a native part of the Mage skill tree

- Add a Unique Skill - Fortified Mana Shield that works like the current Fortified Mana Shield does and has a much steeper skill point cost/ Mana Barrier that uses a different and more interesting mechanic.

- Supplement with defensive skills attached to the elemental masteries that don't require guesswork to counter but are mechanically unique. There's been some discussion on this elsewhere that should work as food for thought.

- Make defending more risky than attacking by providing terrain advantage. An easy way of explaining this is by looking at DoD's map layout as well as the area of Kenji Beach with the rope-bridge.

 

[Etienne oelekno]

Hello 

I haven't pvp yet, but from messages posted here, i think that mana Shield is a problem 

Instead of nerfing it to the ground, maybe just put a 60s CD on the spell ?

Duration : 600s

CD : 60s

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Etienne oelekno

[Oziarch]

Maybe instead of nerfing the mana shield you could add some more pvp unique skill books that add a "dispells shields" effect to some skills maybe for bourg and scout.

[Bobbity]

More dispel effects would be a good idea if they won't be too widespread, only dispelled 2 buffs/statuses at a time maximum and the chance to dispel wasn't based on an arbitrary percentage chance. It needs to be tied to a gameable mechanic. But that sounds like a balance discussion.

 

@Etienne oelekno I think a Mage main should explain to you why the long cooldown is unfair and unworkable as things stand right now. I reckon in the future this could become a viable option, though.

[S1]

Just gonna say in Na Rose you did more damage with Runes and Rune Upgrades.

[shujin51]

pvp is just not on the prio list of most game developers. Whats more important is are the bugs that is frustrating for many player and quality of life. After that we need more economical balance and loots need to be more frequent so there is less exclusivity in the game like rich players getting more rich and poor players getting even poorer after spending so much on a single item. Lastly they can start balance the classes for pve and pvp.

Edited February 9, 2023 by shujin51

[GodOfEntity]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:07 PM, OwlchemistVile said:

Raider: Runs through room gathering mobs, fine.
Knight: runs through room gathering mobs, fine.
Cleric: runs through rooms gathering mobs, fine.
Champ runs through rooms gathering mobs, fine.

Mage runs through rooms gathering mobs, problematic.

 

Doesn't matter anyway. Balance in ROSE just means Raiders are the top class. I give up. Make it whatever you want. Enjoy your Scout and Cleric team.

I like when enough is said, simply quoting is enough said.  

(though, I generally do think that there should be a hard counter to mana shield in PVP, just, not sure which class should have the option for that unique skill book) 

Edited February 13, 2023 by GodOfEntity

[MikAsA]

Half these people don't even have end-game gear or gems crying about a class that's sole survivability relies on it. Once its down, your dead. And it gets drained quickly along with MP. The skill itself has to successful cast the animation which requires jumping. Get stuck half the time, dead. Stun, instant dead. This thread is created by someone who got beat up by a geared mage and now think its OP

[Bobbity]

On 2/13/2023 at 11:44 AM, GodOfEntity said:

I like when enough is said, simply quoting is enough said.  

(though, I generally do think that there should be a hard counter to mana shield in PVP, just, not sure which class should have the option for that unique skill book) 

Well, it can't be BCs, since most BCs can already take on most mages without the need for such a skill.

Knights just don't have what it takes currently to close the gap and capitalize on their dispel and stun. Maybe if the slam skill is modified to deal super-large AOE stun.

Scouts - maybe. That's definitely a balance and theme issue. Depends on the mechanics of the mana burn skill, it could be anything.

Raider - with a gap-closer, sure, passive mana burn on hit, scaling mana burn nuke with DoT. It'd be balanced even with a stun, I reckon.

Artisans - maybe. A special type of bullet that passively burns mana, a special shot that prevents mana regen, doubles MP consumption or prevents a shield from being recast, or maybe penetrates the shield and ignores it to deal damage whenever the mage uses spells. Even with additional range, they're squishy enough that you'd need 2 artis to get the job done for sure. Again, a balance issue.

[Daxio]

On 2/15/2023 at 11:46 AM, Bobbity said:

Well, it can't be BCs, since most BCs can already take on most mages without the need for such a skill.

Knights just don't have what it takes currently to close the gap and capitalize on their dispel and stun. Maybe if the slam skill is modified to deal super-large AOE stun.

Scouts - maybe. That's definitely a balance and theme issue. Depends on the mechanics of the mana burn skill, it could be anything.

Raider - with a gap-closer, sure, passive mana burn on hit, scaling mana burn nuke with DoT. It'd be balanced even with a stun, I reckon.

Artisans - maybe. A special type of bullet that passively burns mana, a special shot that prevents mana regen, doubles MP consumption or prevents a shield from being recast, or maybe penetrates the shield and ignores it to deal damage whenever the mage uses spells. Even with additional range, they're squishy enough that you'd need 2 artis to get the job done for sure. Again, a balance issue.

How about just removing mana shield and giving mage a slight defense passive so they're not as squishy? I'd feel they'd also have to sacrifice a small amount of AP tho as their DPS is insane, you can't have a massively high DPS class and a tank, the whole reason their so squishy in the first place is because they put out so much damage.

 

I feel this would make them similar to alot of other classes in terms of balance and not require literally every other class to have a "Mana shield counter" skill just to combat 1 specific class.

[Bobbity]

I'm in favor of another defensive passive if it's varied, needs skill point investment and is based off of their masteries. Anything else would be a cheap rip-off of battle cleric at this point. The problem is still that crit damage can completely bypass the mana shield and 1HIT KO mages. Mages need to have a strong defense - just not whenever they want. Well, something like that. Anyway, I have a suggestion that might work for this.

Remember, the normal Mana Shield isn't the problem, it's the Fortified Mana Shield that's problematic. If we can remove the skill and somehow keep its strengths while removing its drawbacks, everyone should be happy.

 

[AaronTWJ111]

The mages defending Mana Shield not being OP is so funny lol. How are y’all gonna act like a skilled opponent can perfectly time all of their ccs/interrupt your cast/and kill you in a tiny window? This game is laggy af, most classes literally have one stun or mute (some dont even have that) and the shield has more HP than a fully geared opponent. 

Noones asking for mages to be nerfed to the ground, but it is just plain fact that they literally cannot be killed by any other class that doesn’t also have access to mana shield. Assuming equal gear and skills being pressed in the proper order, no class should be able to dominant every other class. 
 

Earlier points made about mages dying in PVM, hello?? Literally any class that aoe’s a huge pack of 20 will die - that point makes no sense. A bourg is literally squishier than a mage in pvm. Stop trying to cheese the game. It’s no secret that the majority of people who play pvp mages right now play it for the same reason people have been playing battle clerics in AA. Its simply broken and you want to take advantage of something that is clearly imbalanced. 
 

tldr: it should not be IMPOSSIBLE for every other class to kill a fully geared mage. Fact- it is impossible to kill a fully geared mage w a raider/scout/bourg/champ/knight/arti even if both chars have full gear. 

[joshei02]

easy fix. in pvp, while fortified mana shield is up. Defense, Mdef and dodge = 0

keep everything as it is.

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by joshei02

[Phish_]

One idea I have thought about was to have the cooldown of mana shield trigger once it breaks, so you have to wait for the cooldown to recast it again.

[joshei02]

that can work too. give a 4 second window for you to kill the mage.

[FrozzenBite]

maybe increase the cooldown would be the solution, because i see the cooldown is too fast

since mage is burst damage type, not tanker it should not tanky that much

but with fast cooldown from mana shield make it really hard to kill since he always spam the mana shield

you can see on AA like half of their job is mage, and you know what i mean most people always choose the OP class to playing PVP

Edited February 25, 2023 by FrozzenBite

[lazypenguin]

Interesting thread all, regardless it does sound like mana shield is a contentious skill. Evaluating the cooldown seems like a sensible place for the team to investigate as a possibility. In general, for PvP balancing issues the more hard data you can share with us the better. Things like screen recordings are helpful to us because we can’t see all PvP content with out own eyes!

I’d be curious to hear people’s thoughts on cooldown adjustments that wouldn’t nerf this skill into oblivion. Btw in our testing we found a good raider melts a mage.

 

@percent1 @Garnet interesting thread for you.

[Bobbity]

I'm interested to see how lazy and co's raider vs mage combat results hold up in the playerbase's current meta. The results either way would be quite telling.

 

Cooldown's the easiest mechanic to tinker with, of course. I've noticed we typically end up having lengthy discussions that suggest the most out-there solutions, whether implementable or not. By 'we' I mean the forum-posting section of the community. Do we overthink things? Do we just have a lot of ideas to suggest? Either way, we shouldn't need 10 pages to discuss one skill unless the game is seriously broken. This reminds me of a similarly hot button topic on the old Dota Allstars forums where the Spell Shield skill discussion went on for over 50 pages in three different posts each. The problem was eventually solved ten years later by adding two different diversifying mechanics to general gameplay that benefited everyone. Something to think about, maybe?

[bbbbbbbb]

On 2/25/2023 at 11:47 PM, lazypenguin said:

Interesting thread all, regardless it does sound like mana shield is a contentious skill. Evaluating the cooldown seems like a sensible place for the team to investigate as a possibility. In general, for PvP balancing issues the more hard data you can share with us the better. Things like screen recordings are helpful to us because we can’t see all PvP content with out own eyes!

I’d be curious to hear people’s thoughts on cooldown adjustments that wouldn’t nerf this skill into oblivion. Btw in our testing we found a good raider melts a mage.

 

@percent1 @Garnet interesting thread for you.

Absolutely. There are good raiders that can easily melt mages in PVP especially in Akram.

There are many underlying factors that need to take into consideration before nerfing this skill in my opinion. Might as well try to get the end gears first on your characters before complaining about the said Skill.

Not to burst your bubble but you can easily rekt mage if you know how to one target (2-3 players) with the right combination of skills.