Mana shield needs a major nerf

[Daxio]

3 minutes ago, Angeltje said:

The pvm should be relatively easy to get then as otherwise leveling is hell. The agro mages and even cleric gets is insanely not funny.

If mages / Clerics are getting agro just for being that class and using magic based spells then that's a separate issue, giving a game breaking mana shield isn't a solution.

[Angeltje]

7 minutes ago, Daxio said:

If mages / Clerics are getting agro just for being that class and using magic based spells then that's a separate issue, giving a game breaking mana shield isn't a solution.

The agro problem is why we need a shield. So fix agro not just kill it with a nerf

[Daxio]

7 minutes ago, Angeltje said:

The agro problem is why we need a shield. So fix agro not just kill it with a nerf

I can agree with this, fix the agro issue but the mana shield needs removed either way as having the shield on that class is a bigger issue than the agro bug.

[Angeltje]

7 minutes ago, Daxio said:

I can agree with this, fix the agro issue but the mana shield needs removed either way as having the shield on that class is a bigger issue than the agro bug.

Make it less invincible perhaps but kill it heavens no. Don't need to make us drop like flies. 

 

Fix agro and add 15sec cooldown. See how it works out and then maybe more steps if needed. No need to just completely kill it from the get go. See what works to get a true balance.

[Daxio]

9 minutes ago, Angeltje said:

Make it less invincible perhaps but kill it heavens no. Don't need to make us drop like flies. 

 

Fix agro and add 15sec cooldown. See how it works out and then maybe more steps if needed. No need to just completely kill it from the get go. See what works to get a true balance.

For PVM sure that would probably be a good solution, for PVP it needs a much heavier nerf, maybe make it a PVM only skill?

[Angeltje]

19 minutes ago, Daxio said:

For PVM sure that would probably be a good solution, for PVP it needs a much heavier nerf, maybe make it a PVM only skill?

With 10-15sec Cooldown and perhaps cost x amount of valor?  I am talking about the fortified mana shield skill btw.

As the base one would still be nice for clerics.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Angeltje
I keep making typos lol

[Avatar]

1 hour ago, Daxio said:

Good evening,

It has come to my and many other people's attention how broken this skill is with the current buff mechanics, I've noticed more and more muse class players taking advantage of this in PVM and PVP.

PVP -

Literally takes 6+ skills to break the mana shield with self-buffs, the mana shield then has practically no cooldown and can easily regain their mana with a potion resulting in unlimited HP,

PVM -

Over and over i'm watching mages join dungeons and play the tank roll, constantly spamming mana shield and also providing the biggest dps, as a robe type class they're supposed to be the squishiest, yet they have defense capabilities that rival the Knight class which is supposed to be the games main tank.

On top of having a broken mana shield skill they also have a 200% MSPD down debuff and insanely high AP passives and skill power behind all their skills on top of a remove buff skill, 

 

My solution to this would be a 60 second cooldown on the mana shield skill and a 20 second buff timer (it wears off after 20 seconds) at a minimum, if not just remove mana shield all together no class should be this overpowered.

Alternatively make it a support cleric skill only and remove it from any offense type build.

 

 

 

 

Topic merged due to similarity. 

[Rootstock]

1 hour ago, Angeltje said:

With 10-15sec Cooldown and perhaps cost x amount of valor?  I am talking about the fortified mana shield skill btw.

As the base one would still be nice for clerics.

Yep, agree. I repeat myself but for Clerics in PvE mana shield is most definitely not OP and even a slight nerf to it would mean that I’d probably not even use the skill. If PvP is the problem the fix will have to be PvP related too.

[Angeltje]

2 minutes ago, Rootstock said:

Yep, agree. I repeat myself but for Clerics in PvE mana shield is most definitely not OP and even a slight nerf to it would mean that I’d probably not even use the skill. If PvP is the problem the fix will have to be PvP related too.

-nods- yap so if anything only adjust fortified mana shield not mana shield.

[Caerleon]

mages in general need a nerf lol.

I don't see any of their skills miss me, down goes my dodge investment. And I just learned their accuracy also increases with int so they even have higher accuracy than champs 

Mages can even tank my hits, they don't even flinch since their mana shield keeps getting on and on.

[Bobbity]

On 1/25/2023 at 10:11 PM, OwlchemistVile said:

That sounds similar to one of the propositions Leonis made before he was unceremoniously disappeared from Warpportal. I never had any objections to elemental shields. And your suggestion is pretty close.

Fire: Burns enemies on attack
Wind: Increased dodge-rate while shield holds
Water: Magic Resistance up
Sorcery: [if changed to a pierce magic buff instead of magic defense down on target] Harmful Status Resistance up while shield hold.

Stuff like that.
Mana Shield is overly relied upon, hence my post that was referenced by that troll earlier. Taking 50% of the shield potency [and probably SP cost] and shifted to other avenues would inadvertently buff Mages, as instead of only needing to counter 1 button, you'd need to counter more. So, while it is a sort of "crutch" for Mages, shifting it from Mana Shield to a diverse repertoire needs to be thought out before hand as Mages can go from stable to very much never played like before.

Could we maybe add large amounts of crit defense to one of these shields as well (maybe the wind one) so it'll have greater utility but overall tank less normal damage than the current Fortified Mana Shield? So, dodge rate up, crit defense up. I'm thinking the fire shield could not only deal return damage but also explode, dealing AOE fire-type magic dmg on expiration.

I'd rather we find a way to remove fortified mana shield eventually and replace it with separate shields branching off the elemental masteries. This way, mages have to use the basic mana shield until they achieve a mastery. Is this problematic?

 

2 hours ago, Caerleon said:

mages in general need a nerf lol.

I don't see any of their skills miss me, down goes my dodge investment. And I just learned their accuracy also increases with int so they even have higher accuracy than champs 

Mages can even tank my hits, they don't even flinch since their mana shield keeps getting on and on.

 

Sounds like we need something more interesting going on with stealth since accuracy is a deal-breaker for all DPS classes.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Bobbity
Thoughts

[Vile]

I don't care anymore, Remove the spell and let mages rot. Just return the game to a Katar only meta and let everyone have what they want. I just can't be bothered to deal with this anymore.

[dbeeeee]

Honestly true - owlchemist is being defensive bc he is a mage clearly lmao. Ive literally seen mages with maxed mana shields TANK ulverick for the entire fight and also play the role of a knight/raider in dgs by mounting up w mana shield and running through the entire room without getting dismounted. That does not sound like the role mages should be playing imo 

[Vile]

At least I have the nerve to not use a bunch of fake forum ID's.

[Daxio]

2 hours ago, OwlchemistVile said:

I don't care anymore, Remove the spell and let mages rot. Just return the game to a Katar only meta and let everyone have what they want. I just can't be bothered to deal with this anymore.

It's not letting mages rot, it's making them more balanced. I feel making the mana shield a PVM only skill book would be a good solution and making it have a longer cooldown, not remove it all together.

 

My solution would be 30 second cooldown minimum and make it a PVM skill, this way it would still be useful but not broken.

[Vile]

Raider: Runs through room gathering mobs, fine.
Knight: runs through room gathering mobs, fine.
Cleric: runs through rooms gathering mobs, fine.
Champ runs through rooms gathering mobs, fine.

Mage runs through rooms gathering mobs, problematic.

 

Doesn't matter anyway. Balance in ROSE just means Raiders are the top class.I give up. Make it whatever you want. Enjoy your Scout and Cleric team.

[Phish_]

Mana Shield shouldnt be a pvm only skill.. It should still exist in both formats. The game had alot of balance issues at the end of NA and the same issues are still going to be relevant now, Mages had a ton of things going for them and their main flaw was that their skill tree was so vast you couldnt get everything; something that would be interesting if some other classes could have access too (a few more options for diversity at level 250). It's going to be awhile before I can even get into pvp again so I don't want to make claims about it until I get there. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Phish_

[Daxio]

42 minutes ago, OwlchemistVile said:

Raider: Runs through room gathering mobs, fine.
Knight: runs through room gathering mobs, fine.
Cleric: runs through rooms gathering mobs, fine.
Champ runs through rooms gathering mobs, fine.

Mage runs through rooms gathering mobs, problematic.

 

Doesn't matter anyway. Balance in ROSE just means Raiders are the top class.I give up. Make it whatever you want. Enjoy your Scout and Cleric team.

Well the whole point is to not have one "Best" class, at the moment mage is that class.

Scouts are probably the worst by far, they use to have MSPD on their side but now every class has the same if not better mspd passives than them, I am literally playing the most nerfed class in the game and not complaining about it!

Knight runs through rooms gather mobs = fine. This is because they don't have the DPS output of a mage, they are a high tank low DPS class.

Raider runs through rooms gathering mobs? Mate most raiders get slapped within 10 seconds of being under mob pressure idk where you dreamt this up.

Champ runs through rooms gathering mobs = fine. This is true if they're a tank build which champs can do, you'll notice they don't have the DPS output of a mage, and you'll also notice most of the time they don't survive as long if they do.

The reason the mana shield is so problematic is because it's literally a class that's supposed to be a glass cannon but instead of being a glass cannon it's just as tanky if not more tanky than a knight but also has the highest DPS output in the game, how can you not see this as a problem?

And that's only the PVM side of things! PVP no class can rival a mage, they have the 200% MSPD down debuff so any melee class is dead before even getting close, and even if they do get close they have to break that mana shield which has pretty much no cooldown and can be constantly spammed for unlimited hp! (Yes this is possible with the use of mana foods and potions)

It took my scout 6-7 skills to break a mages mana shield the other day in ruins, which resulted in them instantly putting the mana shield back up and then killing me in 3 hits... and you call that balanced? I watched them do the same thing to about 5 or 6 other players within a 20 minute time frame, It appears the only people who are supporting mages are the ones who play mage themselves!

Edited January 30, 2023 by Daxio

[Daxio]

So abit more testing from me today, I asked this mage to let me attempt to break his mana shield, It took 14 hits including 2 impact arrows and 2 phoenix arrows to break, I then asked him to cast 1 skills on me being his strongest skill which instantly dropped me to 59% HP and then the burn effect dropped me to 40% overall.

That's 60% damage to me in the time it takes 14 hits to cause 0 DPS.... which then can be instantly put back up which takes another 14 hits to remove, there isn't really an argument here it's BROKEN.

This skill needs to be a PVM only skill

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Daxio
Mage request name removal

[SpoontacularMage]

Ppl crying over nerf, yet when somebody drops my shield, they can 2-3 hits me.

Ive been doing a shit tons of pvp lately (pretty much all I do), and some ppl can bring my shield down in barely 3 hits. If it takes you 13 hits to take down a shield, then maybe you're doing something wrong, maybe your build isnt made to burst down (are you doing a survivability build? Lol), maybe the mage over gears you ?

There's always counter builds, counter classes. Ppl need to understand and check the damage against a shield and then get ready to stun/mute/ burst the mage down and stop thinking they should be able to kill every classes with every builds.

Geez.

Btw nerf raiders, they dot and stun me and kill me and dodge errrything. Nerf movement speed also, i cant kill ppl when they move too fast. /s

 

Daxio, is ntcool 250? what is his gear like? full exalted w/ good stats? half lumi? full lumi? What is your gear / stats like?

There's so many wrong things with this SS and you're just cherrypicking a context.

Edited February 1, 2023 by SpoontacularMage

[Daxio]

1 hour ago, SpoontacularMage said:

Ppl crying over nerf, yet when somebody drops my shield, they can 2-3 hits me.

Ive been doing a shit tons of pvp lately (pretty much all I do), and some ppl can bring my shield down in barely 3 hits. If it takes you 13 hits to take down a shield, then maybe you're doing something wrong, maybe your build isnt made to burst down (are you doing a survivability build? Lol), maybe the mage over gears you ?

There's always counter builds, counter classes. Ppl need to understand and check the damage against a shield and then get ready to stun/mute/ burst the mage down and stop thinking they should be able to kill every classes with every builds.

Geez.

Btw nerf raiders, they dot and stun me and kill me and dodge errrything. Nerf movement speed also, i cant kill ppl when they move too fast. /s

 

Daxio, is ntcool 250? what is his gear like? full exalted w/ good stats? half lumi? full lumi? What is your gear / stats like?

There's so many wrong things with this SS and you're just cherrypicking a context.

He had 10 levels on me, we were both in exalted 15. Yes he had the slight advantage but not 14 hits to break his shield, Think you could upload some proof of your pvp 3 hits breaking your shield? Ideally a scout please

and nobody is "Crying" if this amount of people are complaining about a game mechanic being broken and not complaining about any other class then it's clearly an issue, I understand you're a mage and don't want your precious over powered class to be made balanced but it needs to be fair for everyone.... Sorry mate.

Yep raiders dodge, that's what they do but their DPS isn't 4-5k every hit and you can get around that with accuracy equipment, at least they're using a balanced mechanic and not a spammable shield which can literally provide unlimited HP if used correctly, especially in open world PVP

That screenshot is just an example, I mean I could go fight a mage the exact same level as me and have a similar outcome (I have done this many times whilst leveling in ruins, training ground etc) Maybe scouts just aren't made to fight mages? but it appears champs have a similar issue, and knights, and bourgs and artisans..... Well at least from the feedback i've been seeing and witnessing in the PVP areas of the game, but hey according to spoon it's not broken right!

I asked you earlier in the discord if you've tried fighting against a mage with any other class and you stated "No" So how would you even know that it's not broken if you haven't tried it from the opposing side? I dare you to build a champ to 250 and fight a mage, almost willing to bet money you wouldn't even get a hit in.

I'm not trying to make mage unusable i'm just trying to make them abit more balanced across the board.

Everything i've stated is from a PVP perspective, in terms of PVM well.... all I can say is who needs a knight when you can just build a mana shield mage! LOL

Running through dungeons tanking the whole thing while mounted! Because mana shield won't even allow the mobs to drop you from your mount, you were stating earlier than no mana shield = no point playing mage, Are you really saying 1 skill makes a whole class? No it just means you'd have to put more effort into making your class tanking and sacrifice a little dps to survive as opposed to being able to stack massive DPS while being able to spam a shield which provides 15-20k extra HP on a class that's designed to be a DPS glass cannon.

 

P.S Mana shield is just as broken on battle cleric (will also need a tweak)

[SpoontacularMage]

10 minutes ago, Daxio said:

He had 10 levels on me, we were both in exalted 15. Yes he had the slight advantage but not 14 hits to break his shield, Think you could upload some proof of your pvp 3 hits breaking your shield? Ideally a scout please

and nobody is "Crying" if this amount of people are complaining about a game mechanic being broken and not complaining about any other class then it's clearly an issue, I understand you're a mage and don't want your precious over powered class to be made balanced but it needs to be fair for everyone.... Sorry mate.

Yep raiders dodge, that's what they do but their DPS isn't 4-5k every hit and you can get around that with accuracy equipment, at least they're using a balanced mechanic and not a spammable shield which can literally provide unlimited HP if used correctly, especially in open world PVP

That screenshot is just an example, I mean I could go fight a mage the exact same level as me and have a similar outcome (I have done this many times whilst leveling in ruins, training ground etc) Maybe scouts just aren't made to fight mages? but it appears champs have a similar issue, and knights, and bourgs and artisans..... Well at least from the feedback i've been seeing and witnessing in the PVP areas of the game, but hey according to spoon it's not broken right!

I asked you earlier in the discord if you've tried fighting against a mage with any other class and you stated "No" So how would you even know that it's not broken if you haven't tried it from the opposing side? I dare you to build a champ to 250 and fight a mage, almost willing to bet money you wouldn't even get a hit in.

I'm not trying to make mage unusable i'm just trying to make them abit more balanced across the board.

Everything i've stated is from a PVP perspective, in terms of PVM well.... all I can say is who needs a knight when you can just build a mana shield mage! LOL

Running through dungeons tanking the whole thing while mounted! Because mana shield won't even allow the mobs to drop you from your mount, you were stating earlier than no mana shield = no point playing mage, Are you really saying 1 skill makes a whole class? No it just means you'd have to put more effort into making your class tanking and sacrifice a little dps to survive as opposed to being able to stack massive DPS while being able to spam a shield which provides 15-20k extra HP on a class that's designed to be a DPS glass cannon.

 

P.S Mana shield is just as broken on battle cleric (will also need a tweak)

Alright, lets go point by point coz you either didnt register what I wrote on disc or you're being ignorant on purpose.

1. No person in the 250 took 10hits + to break my shield unless they have no gear. There's 2 scouts that can break my shield in a few hits (depending on their crit / Skill power ) - meiji, suii. Shaina (or smth like that) is a xbow scout which can deal quite a bunch of dmg and still tank. meiji and sui can break my shield in 4 to 7 hits. Champs (unknownplayer - sword champ, Erum - axe) can hit and crit me between 4k-7k. Most of these players actually plan their way around a mage and know when to stun/mute. To me, it just seems like you have a skill issue or gear issue, whatever you wanna believe.

2. How is nobody crying in this thread? Ive read every comments and ppl asking to litteraly delete or remove mana shield from PVP coz they suck or compare their selves to geared mage. There is an issue with mana shield, as I've stated on discord like you said. There needs to be a tweak, not a heavy nerf. Sorry mate if wont ever be a balanced 1v1 game because of certain builds. Some builds are just completely counters to others. Do you want me to upload the big ass paragraph I wrote on disc about dodge, block and mspeed in pvp? Lol.

3. Raiders can dodge a shit tons and use DoTs and kill... well anything while not getting hit except by dots.  How is dodge a balanced mechanic or block when it completely negates anyone with X accuracy or no dots? Lol seriously.

4. I've never said it isn't "broken". I did say many times that it needs a tweak, get over yourself. Oh right, remember around lvl 160 when you spawn killed me, you a scout and me a mage? I couldn't do shit. Did I cry like you're doing? no.

5. Yes you're trying to get mage unusable, not balanced as you're stating. When you're suggesting to just remove mana shield, you're just asking to make the class completely obsolete.

6. Pvp perspective that isnt even 250? How do you expect the dev to balance every single brackets? PVp should be balanced around 250, not 230, not 160. Also full geared vs full geared.

7. You're saying mages tank like knights without specific gear? Thats just ignorant. Clerics can tank most dungeons as well without mana shield when they're geared. Raiders can just dodge every mobs to the mini bosses as well, is that OP? Champs can tank almost any PvM bosses

I won't lvl a champ 250 and gear it just to try against a mage, you're just being dumb over that.

All in all, if you can actually register 1 thing from this reply:  Yes mana shield needs a tweak. Removing it from completely or only in PVP isn't a solution, like you suggested.

I will not reply anymore to posts that are like " bUt iT tAkES mE 14 HitS!@#!@#!!" because there's obviously an issue on your side.

 

[Daxio]

26 minutes ago, SpoontacularMage said:

Alright, lets go point by point coz you either didnt register what I wrote on disc or you're being ignorant on purpose.

1. No person in the 250 took 10hits + to break my shield unless they have no gear. There's 2 scouts that can break my shield in a few hits (depending on their crit / Skill power ) - meiji, suii. Shaina (or smth like that) is a xbow scout which can deal quite a bunch of dmg and still tank. meiji and sui can break my shield in 4 to 7 hits. Champs (unknownplayer - sword champ, Erum - axe) can hit and crit me between 4k-7k. Most of these players actually plan their way around a mage and know when to stun/mute. To me, it just seems like you have a skill issue or gear issue, whatever you wanna believe.

2. How is nobody crying in this thread? Ive read every comments and ppl asking to litteraly delete or remove mana shield from PVP coz they suck or compare their selves to geared mage. There is an issue with mana shield, as I've stated on discord like you said. There needs to be a tweak, not a heavy nerf. Sorry mate if wont ever be a balanced 1v1 game because of certain builds. Some builds are just completely counters to others. Do you want me to upload the big ass paragraph I wrote on disc about dodge, block and mspeed in pvp? Lol.

3. Raiders can dodge a shit tons and use DoTs and kill... well anything while not getting hit except by dots.  How is dodge a balanced mechanic or block when it completely negates anyone with X accuracy or no dots? Lol seriously.

4. I've never said it isn't "broken". I did say many times that it needs a tweak, get over yourself. Oh right, remember around lvl 160 when you spawn killed me, you a scout and me a mage? I couldn't do shit. Did I cry like you're doing? no.

5. Yes you're trying to get mage unusable, not balanced as you're stating. When you're suggesting to just remove mana shield, you're just asking to make the class completely obsolete.

6. Pvp perspective that isnt even 250? How do you expect the dev to balance every single brackets? PVp should be balanced around 250, not 230, not 160. Also full geared vs full geared.

7. You're saying mages tank like knights without specific gear? Thats just ignorant. Clerics can tank most dungeons as well without mana shield when they're geared. Raiders can just dodge every mobs to the mini bosses as well, is that OP? Champs can tank almost any PvM bosses

I won't lvl a champ 250 and gear it just to try against a mage, you're just being dumb over that.

All in all, if you can actually register 1 thing from this reply:  Yes mana shield needs a tweak. Removing it from completely or only in PVP isn't a solution, like you suggested.

I will not reply anymore to posts that are like " bUt iT tAkES mE 14 HitS!@#!@#!!" because there's obviously an issue on your side.

 

Not being ignorant you just keep making up random lies to try justify this broken skill?

1. As I stated previously, please upload the proof of these scouts breaking your mana shield in 2 hits, along with a couple of other mages so we know it's not staged as I 100% don't believe this for a second, unless your mage just straight up sucks ass and you haven't built it properly to have a decent mana shield.

2. The fact you describe people that bring up the fact a skill is broken as "Crying" shows your immaturity towards the whole topic, I doubt everyone just "Sucks" or their characters aren't "Built properly" it's more likely the skill was designed to be used in the high scaling of NA rose and was never tweaked for this lower scaled version of the game, (confirmed by Garnet), in terms of "It will never be a 1v1 balanced game due to different builds" that's bullshit, any class should be able to go up against any class if the balancing is done correctly, there's lots of different builds and gear on WoW but yet it has a balanced pvp system across the board? In NA I managed to go up against everyone on my scout even tho apparently raider was the Meta? Yes some builds completely counter others but that doesn't change the fact Mana shield is impossible to beat on certain classes.

3. Dodge is a strong mechanic yet but it's not impossible to counter, I believe a dot shouldn't land if the skill misses and if that's not the case then that should also be looked at, although you're acting like accuracy gear does nothing against dodge when in fact it does, if accuracy hits still hit 100% of the time then dodge would be useless all together....

4. Please explain what you'd expect the "Tweak" to be.

5. I never said I wanted it to be unusable, I stated instead of a "Mana shield" that is spammable either put a decent cooldown on it so it wasn't unlimited HP or remove it and replace it was a defense passive so mages weren't considered so squishy, but I also feel if mages get a defense passive, they should take a slight DPS nerf also.

6. I agree, although the feedback isn't just from my bracket it's from alot of people including the 250 bracket. The only reason I uploaded the previous screenshot was because we had similar gear and weren't too far apart in levels.

7. I'm not saying Clerics aren't overpowered either, because BC is probably just as bad if not worse than mage, it just isn't getting so heavily abused at the moment, so I guess it isn't "In the spot light" Raiders can skim past mobs yes this is true but they can't tank a whole room of ulverick and just stand there spamming a skill to stay alive.... by the time they reach the boss room they're normally required to stealth for the rest to avoid death, well from what i've seen anyways, the exception being a few who have full tank gear / build but even their DPS output isn't even worth mentioning.

Yes champs can tank PVM bosses but once again Tank builds with low DPS, Mages on the other hand get the luxury of having the Tank build perks whilst still having the high DPS, and this is where there's a problem in PVM, The general rule of thumb is Tanks = high defense low dps and DPS = High DPS low tanking, except mages they are High DPS and high Tanking, can you not see the issue here? is it really that hard?

I am glad you can agree there is an issue with the mana shield i'm interested to see what your "Tweak" would be, and why you think you should be capable of having high tanking abilities and high dps?

[Avatar]

Please remember to keep things civil. There’s no issues with having differences of opinions, but the name calling/insults and such has to stop before it escalates. Thank you. 

[Daxio]

35 minutes ago, Avatar said:

Please remember to keep things civil. There’s no issues with having differences of opinions, but the name calling/insults and such has to stop before it escalates. Thank you. 

This ^