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Increase the Clan Member Limit


Zeror
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Posted (edited)

When playing with friends, buddies and other cool folks you find in the game and want to play together in one big clan it's kinda stupid that the game limits the amount of clan members. So the system of clan ranks to raise the member limit is kinda stupid. If wanna play with a lot of friends and buddies in a clan you should be able to. No more raising clan ranks to be able to invite more people. It's a totally unnessecary system.

I suggest to do this instead:

  • Set a fixed maximum limit of at least 256 clan members. More is better.
  • Use Clan Ranks for something different. Maybe some Clan Perks, Clan Items can be unlocked by leveling up the Clan Rank.
  • Clan Roles should not be limited as well. If you want everybody have a Clan Leader/Master role you should be able to. As long there is at least 1 Clan leader/master (no matter who) then it's fine.

Encourage people to play together with removing ridiculous limitations.

Edited by Zeror
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What? 
 

Umm, this idea is awfully extravagant. 
 

The system as it is now (in terms of ranking up the clan) is perfectly fine where it’s at. Having a limitation on members is a good thing to either a) encourage clan members to use the clan fields to level up/rank up the clan and b) promoting others to set up their own clan. 
 

Clans are not a requirement for the game. It is, however, a sense of camaraderie. You have to put in time and effort to evolve it. Ranking it up to add additional players is part of that experience. 
 

The “RPG” in MMORPG stands for role playing game. This is supposed to represent (kinda) what happens on the outside to sort of grant you some reality or immersion into the game. Think of a clan as a tribe, company, gym, store, whatever you want. Do any of these (regardless of where you live in the world) have 20 leaders (CEOs, Presidents, village elder, etc)? 15 leaders, 10? No. There is only 1 such position (Clan Master/Leader). Same concept applies to the Clan Deputy. Only 1 person (or even 3) can be selected to take charge if the leader is out (similar to the Presidential line of succession or the Monarchy succession). 
 

These limitations also encourage people to play together as they’re all seeking the same goal.. and that is to give their clan the ability to recruit more members. 
 

Sorry, I don’t support this idea. 

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I don't think any firm decision has been made regarding the clan system yet but for the record, the system at NA was changed in 2015 when the server merge happened. and that's the system currently in the game.  It's very different from the clan system in iROSE.     Here is a guide I made back then to help new players get some understanding of how clans work.

I am sure the p2w aspects of the system like buying clan points from the Item Mall will be removed but other than that, the system itself was pretty nice.  The cost of the clan skills will have to be reviewed since those were again, p2w, but making them more realistic would fix it.

Anyway I just thought I would share this so suggestions can be made based on the  clan system that is actually in the game right now.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/12/2022 at 8:43 PM, HoneyBuns said:

I don't think any firm decision has been made regarding the clan system yet but for the record, the system at NA was changed in 2015 when the server merge happened. and that's the system currently in the game.  It's very different from the clan system in iROSE.     Here is a guide I made back then to help new players get some understanding of how clans work.

I am sure the p2w aspects of the system like buying clan points from the Item Mall will be removed but other than that, the system itself was pretty nice.  The cost of the clan skills will have to be reviewed since those were again, p2w, but making them more realistic would fix it.

Anyway I just thought I would share this so suggestions can be made based on the  clan system that is actually in the game right now.

This newer clan system is already way better for clans, but still the memberlimit is way too low in my opinion. As far as i can understand from your guide you need to level up a specific skill to increase the memberlimit? Dunno what the memberlimits were in this newer system btw.

What if those limits raise a bit more quickly to higher numbers? Like this:
Clan Level [lvl] (updated):

  1. 30 members (default)
  2. 50 members
  3. 70 members
  4. 100 members
  5. 130 members
  6. 160 members
  7. 200 members
  8. 250 members
  9. 300 members
Edited by Zeror
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3 hours ago, Zeror said:

This newer clan system is already way better for clans, but still the memberlimit is way too low in my opinion. As far as i can understand from your guide you need to level up a specific skill to increase the memberlimit? Dunno what the memberlimits were in this newer system btw.

What if those limits raise a bit more quickly to higher numbers? Like this:
Clan Level [lvl]:

  1. 15 members (default)
  2. 30 members
  3. 50 members
  4. 75 members
  5. 100 members
  6. 150 members
  7. 200 members
  8. 250 members
  9. 300 members

I found the Patch Notes where we got the first information on the new system.  Initially the max was 100 but I believe it was raised at some point.  It's been a minute and I'm not as young as I used to be so I don't remember what it was raised to, sorry .  Something in my brain says 300 but that could be totally wrong. 

It was up to each clan how they spent their clan points.  The skill to expand was a permanent one.  Same thing with the stat boost skills.  That patch note link gives a brief explanation of which skills were permanent and which were temporary.  The temp skills had to be renewed every month and they were quite expensive.  Big pvp clans kept those skills active all of the time by purchasing the clan point boosters from the item mall.  Much of that has to be changed to keep with the philosophy of the Rednim team of nothing p2w.   But I do think the overall system itself was good and I hope we keep it with whatever modifications they feel are necessary.

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7 hours ago, Zeror said:

This newer clan system is already way better for clans, but still the memberlimit is way too low in my opinion. As far as i can understand from your guide you need to level up a specific skill to increase the memberlimit? Dunno what the memberlimits were in this newer system btw.

What if those limits raise a bit more quickly to higher numbers? Like this:
Clan Level [lvl]:

  1. 15 members (default)
  2. 30 members
  3. 50 members
  4. 75 members
  5. 100 members
  6. 150 members
  7. 200 members
  8. 250 members
  9. 300 members

i personally dont agree with this, there should be a limit or else all server will join one clan that will make it strong and all other clans will be mostly empty, it all depends on the population of the server.

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  • 1 month later...

Making the clan member limit increase in the first few levels so that on server start more then 15 people can join a clan would be a good thing. Clans and communities make people stick to a game next to content.

I would seriously suggest to increase the numbers with like starting from at least 32 or something on grade 1 and a max about 300 i think! (maybe even more) You have to take into consideration people want to join the clan with all their chars.

If the game succeeds there will still be enough different clans!

Edited by TheShredr
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I like the idea of having member limit increase by clan rank as usual, it gives clans something to work towards and it limits clans just accepting anyone like a bot, but perhaps it's time to just boost those numbers up a bit. I don't know the current rank limitations, but similarly to how they are planning on increasing party size, maybe they can just go ahead and double or triple the amount of allowed members for each clan rank? Rednim is all about encouraging community play over solo play, so this sounds like it fits in their vision.

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  • 1 month later...

You can give other specific rewards that are limited from a certain grade, this will still make people level their clans. 

Playing together and having enough room for alot of people is a very good thing imo. In the past spots are mostly reserved for active people and mostly main chars. This excludes a whole lot of people who would love the social part and help a clan established clan could offer.

I think the vision in having very limited space for people from the start is demotivating for the people who cant join from the start. So I am very much in favor of removing or upping the limit. The social part of the game will also keep players attached.

You dont have to be afraid that there will not be enough clans. People will create their nostalgic clans and there will be enough players. 

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4 hours ago, TheShredr said:

You can give other specific rewards that are limited from a certain grade, this will still make people level their clans. 

Playing together and having enough room for alot of people is a very good thing imo. In the past spots are mostly reserved for active people and mostly main chars. This excludes a whole lot of people who would love the social part and help a clan established clan could offer.

I think the vision in having very limited space for people from the start is demotivating for the people who cant join from the start. So I am very much in favor of removing or upping the limit. The social part of the game will also keep players attached.

You dont have to be afraid that there will not be enough clans. People will create their nostalgic clans and there will be enough players. 

There is something about a small community coming and working together in order to include more people to join. 
 

Asking people to work towards, let’s say, having a feature of a clan house is exciting, yes. But what excitement would that bring if there’s no one to share it with? 
 

You will have people working harder so that they would be able to include their friends/family. That, in my opinion, is worth more than some other type of reward. 
 

Incentivizing logging in of the game is nothing bad nor new. If you have a clan of 50 members and only 10 of them are active, what sense of community is there? You’ll have 10 people working towards expansion, features, and rewards. While the others enjoy the fruits of their clan members labors when they feel it appropriate to login. This, of course, isn’t a bad thing depending on the mission/vision of the clan. If the clan master doesn’t care about this, they’d have to be up-front with the potential members before they join to ensure everyone is on the same page. Otherwise, people will just leave the clan and you’re back to square one. 

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Unfortunately the ROSE forum at Warpportal was archived so I can't edit anything on the guides I made there but the devs here did make a couple of changes to clans so far on the test server.  Starting number was increased to 10 (formerly 5) and the max number is capped now at 100 (formerly 450). 

Having the ability to have 10 people in the clan when you make it is going to be super helpful.  It was really brutal when this new clan system was implemented at NA with only 5 members until you could get enough clan points to expand the clan.  And I think 100 max is fine, 450 was way too much even taking into account people's alts.

I don't think anything has been finalized yet but the current clan system is pretty nice and I do hope they keep most of it. It gives clans the ability to decide which skills to focus on and work towards.  The cost of the clan skills definitely needs to be reviewed along with some of the clan skills themselves however.

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I do think you have to take the average age of the people who will play this game into consideration. Thats why I argue that you would like less active people in clans to keep them attached to the game and keep this game alive. I truely believe that the social part and the capability of clans organizing stuff on their own is a big part of making this game succesfull. If you guys want to limit this just because it seems too much, then I think you make a big mistake!

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The amount of people in a clan shouldnt really affect the effectiveness or feasibility of a clan. In NA there were multiple clans who had 3-5 branches of the original clan and it didnt affect anyone who was not part of the main clan. I myself started off from a main clan and then ended up being a clan leader for one of the branches and i never felt like i missed out because we always interacted with everyone no matter which branch they're from.

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Skills in the clan should could also be used to help upgrade the clan.

i.e clan crafting, clan stockpiling not just buffs 

Items should also be clan bound like you get account bound items.

JUST TO MAKE CLAN ACTIVITIES MORE ENJOYABLE

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For me Clans don't have to become bigger. You can always make Sub-Clans from where people can grow and eventually maybe end up in the Main clan. That way you create a bigger clan and also make it more enjoyable!

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You weren't around for the mega clan phase of NA I take it, where 2 or 3 clans had 500 members and all slots filled. Overwhelming majority of people joined those 3 clans, for passives and social benefits. It effectively destroyed smaller clans, start up clans, shut down competition, and bred a large amount of animosity. People forget that 50 people, is a LOT of people when you're all online and coordinating. 

Max clan size should be 50-100 range. No bigger. Keep it more of a personal experience. And don't over-populate a single clan into being too big to compete with, and stiffle all competition and up-start clans. It's bad for the player experience. 

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8 hours ago, OwlchemistVile said:

You weren't around for the mega clan phase of NA I take it, where 2 or 3 clans had 500 members and all slots filled. Overwhelming majority of people joined those 3 clans, for passives and social benefits. It effectively destroyed smaller clans, start up clans, shut down competition, and bred a large amount of animosity. People forget that 50 people, is a LOT of people when you're all online and coordinating. 

Max clan size should be 50-100 range. No bigger. Keep it more of a personal experience. And don't over-populate a single clan into being too big to compete with, and stiffle all competition and up-start clans. It's bad for the player experience. 

I wasn't there indeed, and I do agree such big numbers can have a big negative effect. I do not like clan passives or clanbound skills that make individual characters better. Imo this shouldn't be bound to clans. I do believe clans should be mostly about the social part of the game and uniting people and building communities.

So with a limit of 50 members, and you have 20 unique people, they can have max 1 alt in the clan next to their main. Then the clan is about full. If you take into consideration people don't have the time to put in anymore like the old days, you really have to select only the active players. This will leave out a whole bunch of people in the community who can't join the active clans.

I would love that there is a situation where 'inactive' people can join the social communities and have a fun time, and don't get denied because of their lack of activity.

I am not sure what the right number is to set the max limit, but I would like to be able to build a loyal and nice community clan without the need of 4 alternative clans to fill all people in, because if your community is big enough this will cause the same effect, only across multiple clans.

I'm trying to setup a Dutch community to start a clan with when the game releases and we already have potential 20 members who probably level more then 1 character, if then the max limit is 50 on highest grade, this means noone else can join. Or we need 4 alt clans which only increase harder communication or spreads people across multiple clans which does not encourage community binding and loyalty.

(So my opinion is bound to my own priorities, but I try to think about the impact on the game. But I do not know if the limits currently really solve those problems or are worked around in other ways. Like having advantages by having clanskills is something I dislike, since its not achievable for everyone without having to join clans and/or being active.)

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I think you gave yourself and answer there. If they're inactive, why would they expect to come back very rarely/sparsely and be met with an active group to immediately benefit from despite not having helped retain participation themselves. If you want an active group, you should probably yourself be active. 

That's not to say there's shouldn't be a general lively environment in the game, but that's separate. 

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But what is active these days? Like playing multiple hours a day in the past days where we have the nostalgia feelings, or now having a family/work and responsabilities which limit our gametime (because many of this game community is over the 30's and have much more limited gametime). If you want an 'active' clan with this situation, you need more people. So having the endgame experience or being in a nice community is only limited to the people who can play really active still?

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You're asking me to make an assumption on an undefined group in regards to their age to draw a tenuous conclusion about how much time in the day would arbitrarily define active. 
In short, you're asking for my opinion, and I don't like offering my opinion anymore because frankly, they don't help much. 

Now, from more of an objective goal lens, I would say this. The game needs to make changes that promotes not only old fogies who played in the last 15 years to come back and remain loyal; but ones that draw in new players. New players, if entertained and catered to with modern design, updated experiences are more likely to stay, tell their friends, and form active sub communities. It's a core tenant of building a stable and active player base across the entire market after-all. 

If you can log in, without a friend base or "active clan" whatever that means, and can find a group to level with, or do dungeons with, whilst experiencing very little friction and encouraging socialization: then you have a successful and active player base. You won't *need* a clan to do anything, and they'd be more social hangouts for people [active or not] to hang out in.

Problems arise when you inject character power or ANY benefit to being in a clan outside of socializing, and that's when the more restrictive limits need to be VERY slowly expanded upon, until a healthy equilibrium is met. One that allows for new clans to pop up and be capable of competing, without stifling limits that provide inconvenience. 

So the question is. Is there ANY gameplay benefit outside of social benefit to being in a clan? If so, limits need be in place. If not, I could care less about the size of a clan. 

Edited by OwlchemistVile
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It is not about asking your opinion, it is about looking at the playerbase that generally plays ROSE Online, hence your target audience. 70% of the playerbase will be over their 30's and have a family, work and/or other responsibilities. (Yes, this is an assumption, but so far everyone I met in my ROSE playtime is around this age) This will be a big difference compared to 13-18 year olds who have all the time to play. You have to take both groups into consideration ofcourse, but every game/company takes his target audience into consideration in the choices they make. We don't have to create a game which suites all the needs of the youngsters, since all the new created games already provide in that.

I do agree on the 2nd paragraph unto the last and concluding from that with my opinion:

1. Remove all gameplay benefit from being in a clan, regarding skills and passives.

2. Remove or up the member limit.

Next to those 2 things you will have the sideeffects of big clans having advantage in pvp zones and being able to control the market if really big. The pvp part can also happen with alt clan, so this isnt the best argument. The market controlling I do not know if it is really valid, I do not have experience with that.

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I think they should remove the growth per level cap. Instead give other perks like larger guild storage per guild rank. Make guilds a flat cap that never gets bigger. I know some people like the ability to have ridiculously huge guilds but dominating a server because you are the biggest guild kinda sucks. Guild sizes should be balanced to make guild vs guild activities worth while. If one guild always dominates why not just join the winning guild and profit? Balance is required.

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We could STILL have clan combat passives and clan drops passives - IF and only IF those passives aren't something anybody can get. There should be a wealth of skills out there that could affect any aspect of gameplay, bound uniquely to truly Unique drop-on-death artifacts. Swords, crowns, shields, jewelry, what-have-you. One of each kind. Something clans would go to war for, either to get first once they get wind of the mere possibility of such a thing, or to loot from the bodies of their enemies in clan PvP. Something for which you'd even ally with your trash ex-boyfriend's clan just to share for mutual benefit. Something for which you'd even betray.

 

It's the free availability of those combat and loot passives that was really problematic. If there was a possibility you could get an artifact that would drown an entire army in their own phlegm for 12 seconds, not counterable by any heal except for natural regen, you'd fight and kill for it. 

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I think the toxicity mainly came from the clan imbalances, class imbalances, the duping and AA crashing - things Rednim can actually fix. I dunno; my memory's trash. Either way, yes, this could open the community up to more toxicity but it's also a step or two forward in the game's staying power. Anyway, on-topic: clans should have limits in many and different ways, but whether those should be hard limits or things modified by other mechanics is something for the devs to explore. We should probably start out with 100 or so as our ceiling for now. 

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  • Zeror changed the title to Increase the Clan Member Limit

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