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General Cleric change discussion


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Hello everyone!

Let me start by introducing myself.

For those of you that don’t know me, I am ShogunHiira, or Shogun_Hira#4832 on Discord. You may have seen me around on the ROSE online discord server, where I participate in debates from time to time. I am a 32 years old R.O.S.E. Online player, and I started playing way back, during iRose.

Now, the reason for this topic, is to start a discussion about the proposed cleric changes by the developers, in hopes that we may come up with a couple viable suggestions the developers can - hopefully - draw some inspiration from. 
I’ve seen a topic or two involving debates about clerics, but not a single one which discusses all changes together: so here it is!

Now I’ve heard and read, that the developers intend to remove offensive buffs from the cleric and give the other classes a class specific party buff, in favor of countering what is or was known as “buff slaves”: clerics on a second account and client, there only to buff one’s other characters. I’m all for turning a cleric into a more actively played role; but I do also believe that just removing offensive buffs from the cleric is the way forward, and I’ll tell you why. Clerics, on their own, are just not very strong. They need to rely on others to fight for them, while keeping them healed and buffed up. With the removal of buffs, all that remains and sets a cleric apart, is their ability to heal. However, any other class can just use heal potions and food to recover missing health, and that becomes even less of an issue if they also have highly refined armor, which reduces their incoming damage even further. This means, that other classes might favor more offensively oriented classes over the cleric, considering the cleric wil just slow them down and take a portion of not only their exp, but their drops as well. 

I’ve spent some time thinking, and I have come up with some potential new abilities that I think could be issued to clerics to fill a void. I realize introducing new abilities is quite some work, as I could imagine you need to create animations, artwork and effects for them, but I do believe it is the best way forward for clerics rather than just removing things from them.

#1: A crit up & damage up buff in the form of a link*; a cleric can form a link with party members, increasing dmg and crit chance / severity so long as they stay in range of the cleric. The link is only active within this range.

#2: A single life sharing + hp & def boost link* with one character, that works the same as the previously mentioned ability; however it can only be cast on one target at a time.

*I’m using “link” because I just believe that something like this is a very cool idea; but of course an easier way is to just have it so party members need to be close by. It would only work within a party, and is on a short-ish timer of say 1 or 2 minutes and needs to be actively maintained in between healing.

#3: A shield that can be cast on a target, that lasts for a short duration, say 15 seconds, and is on a 1 minute timer (values are just an example).

#4: A party-wide buff that increases the chance of finding better items, as well as a chance to increase the quantity of dropped items.

I could think of a few possible debuffs for enemies as well; but with how clunky ROSE can be, I’m not sure if switching between healing and linking with party members on one hand, and hitting and debuffing specific enemies on the other hand, is favorable.

Lastly, I want to state that I realize I might be very premature with my post, considering we haven’t really seen anything just yet, and the very first alpha phase has only just been launched. That said, I do hope that by bringing this to the attention of the developers, we may be able to help them out a little with thoughts and ideas.

I’d like to hear how you guys feel about this! Please let me hear your own thoughts and ideas by replying to this topic.

Thanks,

Hira

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I agree with the planned changes to Clerics to counter the "buff slave" issue. Your proposed idea of making the Clerics actively take part in the fighting is a great idea, with linking skills to beef up certain stats to either a specific character or part wide. It would change the dynamics of both PVE and PVP, putting support characters into the fray. Risk and Reward focused. It is similar to the Guard skill found on Tank classes in Warhammer Online.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I agree to some of the changes you have mentioned Shogun although, i think that the people who are making the most noise regarding clerics are people who do not really play the class and just use the (2nd client) class for buff purposes. I main a cleric maybe not as great as other players who went in depth with different builds etc. but i never play a cleric just to stand around and wait until party members call for buff i know clerics are weak that is why i always buy health pots to supplement for my lack of def so i will run out of heals far more frequently than even once having to use a mana potion. I loved the fact that i could buff myself and heal, but i could not take on a lot of mobs at once or even solo a boss close to my level or even orange for that matter.

I have learned to deal with my char deficiencies and worked around it as of many with the other classes that you play with, why must the class that is played the least be punished the heaviest out of all when none of the other classes gets "nerfed". I understand the need for interaction and social advantages but yet again it is a choice to party with other players and not an obligation.

 

This is just my point of view on the matter i am only speaking for myself and no else. Others will have a different and a clearer PoV what will and should work/  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just watched the Alpha live stream. Hyped for the game to come back. However as a cleric main it really pains me to hear the classes defining features are being gutted.

It was awesome being able to stack up your friends to help with leveling progression. But without their buffing tools they become a heal bot. /:

I understand the switch to making them more active party members, but that changes their function into basically a second mage which I think is redundant 😦💔 Its kind of deterring me from playing the game when it releases again.  

Edited by cyaneyedlion
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Im not sure what I'm thinking about the changes. I understand them in some ways. Like its good that players should play together, buff eachothers with all classes etc. But what about if you are playing on your own? If you don't have anyone to play with? 

If I'm leveling my hawker for example, how many buffs will I get on my own? Will the progress be super-slow comparing to if I had like 4 party members of different classes to buff eachothers? 

ROSE is all about Nostalgia for me, and with the Nostalgia comes the Clerics buffs, so I don't know - I hope for the best! 

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i understand your concerns Erko i have the same as well, lets wait and see how the changes impact the game once it starts although it wont be too noticeable in the first 2-3 months because the server will be highly populated with nostalgia and enthusiasm. The devs did however say that if the changes doesnt work they wont hesitate to revert back or make improvements which ever character class it may be. 

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I want to clear up some misconceptions here.
"Now I’ve heard and read, that the developers intend to remove offensive buffs from the cleric and give the other classes a class specific party buff"
Other classes in NA have for a very long time, already had their party buffs. over 5 years easily. That wasn't a new element, the only new part, was Clerics not having ALL the buffs. 
"Clerics, on their own, are just not very strong"
Debatable. They're the only class capable of healing themselves reliably. Their damage may not be the BEST, but it's actually not the worst. There are good and strong ways to build a Cleric for damage in NA. 
"However, any other class can just use heal potions and food to recover missing health,"
Potions have a cooldown, and food items are not allowed in any Game Arena mode. You absolutely REQUIRE a Clerics heals [usually Salamander Flames] for a long gearing period at end-game while doing Dungeons, Arenas, and even some end-game open world Bosses.
"and take a portion of not only their exp"
This isn't a mechanic in NA's code. There is some net-code problems with Party feature, but that's a different problem currently.

The tether/link ideas are interesting. And I also like an idea I heard prior being an "aura" style buff system that requires you to stay near the person who gave you the buff.
The bubble's are actually MMORPG standard fan-fare and a perfectly fine idea. There are 2 main types of healing in RPG's, Restorative support that recovers damage after you've taken it [Heal], and preventative support that protects you from an amount of damage before you take it [bubbles/shields/barriers].
The drop rate increase I personally don't like. That just means if I go farming for literally ANYTHING in end-game, I'm going to be at a disadvantage without a Cleric [who might also snipe my loot while they AFK to "support me".] Not a fan of this one. Plus that's more of a Dealer identity, not a Cleric.

 

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Very good thread 👍 As this must be the Rose's oldest debate .. 😄 Indeed Cleric buffs were litterally needed to level up efficiently (even just to play with fun) on the original iRose version => leading to this famous drift of "dual client", since any player wanted to have his own cleric (buffs), then not caring much about party (because he has to keep his cleric up to his level), which killed slowly the community aspect of the game.

So we can surely understand that the new version of the game should be cleaned of this deep dependency to the Cleric buffs (even if it kinda just moves the dependency to other jobs), but there must be a way to do so, without removing all his useful buff (only leaving him damage % + MP buff wouldn't be enough) or the class would just disapear, IMO (I know some would say "they can heal", but in Rose if you're in a big enough party, even on Kings, you just have to run when focused, and no heal is really necessary + mages can take some heal skill to do some side support). So, I think it would be a bit sad to lose the only "support" job of the game, because even if it was way too strong in the original design, it was also a Rose iconic class ("Muse" meaning inspiring, supporting person), and many of us have great memories playing it very actively.

Personally I think it would have been OK to keep Cleric buffs, only for party + % based. Another problem was that other classes buffs were ignored because they wouldn't stack, and were weaker than Cleric buffs.

Here are some ideas :

- give back some defensive buffs the HP buff should be given back to Clerics, imo, because it's the first historical "party" buff, and fits pretty well the "heal" role of the class (and the soldier already has attack power (AP) + Def buffs + Str party buffs ! which is already way good enough)
- make buffs stackable : ok this would be hard to balance, but for example : you have a party with a dealer, a hawker, and a (support) muse. Dealer & Hawker give their buffs, (hit / crit / a-speed). But you can't find a soldier, so you miss the AP buff ! 😕 Buuut thanks to your Muse you can have it ! And if you find a Soldier, he can add his "Battle Shout" buff, which will be stacked with the Muse AP buff
- nearby buff mechanism : like the OP, I thought of a system of "proximity" with the muse, meaning if you're close to a muse of your party, (having this "passive", or other mechanism - like "auras") you get a buff ("Inspiring Presence", yeah ? :D), maybe even a buff of all offensive / defensive stats, based on the build the cleric chose ?
- new buffs OK I saw many new stats on this version of the game (like a passive of Dealer increasing "Skill Power", PvM/PvP Offense, Piercing Defense, etc ...), so I thought we could use it to create new buffs ? For example give a "Skill Power" buff to Clerics ? (+ small bonus : give a party buff of "AoE range / Damage" (maybe both) to Mages, which are the historical AoE class of the game ! :))

That's all I could think of, probably way enough already 😄 

Well, either it is one of my ideas or another which would be retained, I wish you guys succeed in keeping this great job alive & well balanced ! Anyway, thx for reading ! 🙂 

Edited by Sefy
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On 3/16/2022 at 1:41 PM, OwlchemistVile said:

I want to clear up some misconceptions here.
"Now I’ve heard and read, that the developers intend to remove offensive buffs from the cleric and give the other classes a class specific party buff"
Other classes in NA have for a very long time, already had their party buffs. over 5 years easily. That wasn't a new element, the only new part, was Clerics not having ALL the buffs. 
"Clerics, on their own, are just not very strong"
Debatable. They're the only class capable of healing themselves reliably. Their damage may not be the BEST, but it's actually not the worst. There are good and strong ways to build a Cleric for damage in NA. 
"However, any other class can just use heal potions and food to recover missing health,"
Potions have a cooldown, and food items are not allowed in any Game Arena mode. You absolutely REQUIRE a Clerics heals [usually Salamander Flames] for a long gearing period at end-game while doing Dungeons, Arenas, and even some end-game open world Bosses.
"and take a portion of not only their exp"
This isn't a mechanic in NA's code. There is some net-code problems with Party feature, but that's a different problem currently.

The tether/link ideas are interesting. And I also like an idea I heard prior being an "aura" style buff system that requires you to stay near the person who gave you the buff.
The bubble's are actually MMORPG standard fan-fare and a perfectly fine idea. There are 2 main types of healing in RPG's, Restorative support that recovers damage after you've taken it [Heal], and preventative support that protects you from an amount of damage before you take it [bubbles/shields/barriers].
The drop rate increase I personally don't like. That just means if I go farming for literally ANYTHING in end-game, I'm going to be at a disadvantage without a Cleric [who might also snipe my loot while they AFK to "support me".] Not a fan of this one. Plus that's more of a Dealer identity, not a Cleric.

 

Removing some of clerics buffs does kill solo aspect. While also shifting buffs to be more class specific does nothing except change the dual client aspect to the class that offers the most useful damage buffs. In this case probably soldiers. Which then becomes a cleric soloing with a soldier mule for the remaining buffs they lack. It kinda doesn’t change any of those perspectives in the grand scheme of things.

edit* - I think an interesting way to change up the Cleric is to add build diversity. With 3 or more options. If I build a STR/INT cleric I have a cleric with good buffs and tanking capabilities that can act as a frontline to allow for Champions and Knights to provide big DPS or barrier support capabilities from a knight, while doing great damage. 
Second would be a DEX/INT cleric. This build would provide extra attack speed and movement speed with great damage and decent support capabilities from a cleric. This would act as a DPS cleric. 
& finally a pure INT cleric build could act as a healer and buff member, this build allows for Solo-building with the dual client. Having options as a cleric would be really enjoyable and a good way to diversify the class. 

Edited by cyaneyedlion
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7 hours ago, cyaneyedlion said:

Removing some of clerics buffs does kill solo aspect. While also shifting buffs to be more class specific does nothing except change the dual client aspect to the class that offers the most useful damage buffs. In this case probably soldiers. Which then becomes a cleric soloing with a soldier mule for the remaining buffs they lack. It kinda doesn’t change any of those perspectives in the grand scheme of things.

edit* - I think an interesting way to change up the Cleric is to add build diversity. With 3 or more options. If I build a STR/INT cleric I have a cleric with good buffs and tanking capabilities that can act as a frontline to allow for Champions and Knights to provide big DPS or barrier support capabilities from a knight, while doing great damage. 
Second would be a DEX/INT cleric. This build would provide extra attack speed and movement speed with great damage and decent support capabilities from a cleric. This would act as a DPS cleric. 
& finally a pure INT cleric build could act as a healer and buff member, this build allows for Solo-building with the dual client. Having options as a cleric would be really enjoyable and a good way to diversify the class. 

Removing all bufs ecept 3 from cleric does not kill the solo aspect of cleric. They have a lot of magic offense and most mobs have terrible magic defense. Spreading buffs across all the classes was to do just that, remove the need to dual client. Remove the need of having multiple characters as well as making sure all class are viable solo. Soldiers have attack power, defense, max HP and strength buffs, so they don't necessarily have most useful damage buffs.

I doubt clerics would go for a STR build to tank. With their dodge rate and block passives that scale on dex, dex is much more viable. Also, dex does not give any movement speed or attack speed. Finally, a cleric with a pure int build would have terrible healing, because healing scales off of charm, not int.

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It's been quite a while now since I've played my cleric, but from what I remember the clerics were just fine. I don't see the point of removing their buffs. And playing a cleric has its difficulties, when playing solo or facing big packs of mobs.

If you want them to be more active in party fights, I would increase the mob's damages or speed attack rather than removing the clerics buffs. Healing is their purpose, not fighting. I feel like it's turning into the Discipline Priest class in World of Warcraft. It can be but then it has to be through a specific talent tree. Pure healers/buffers need to remain available.

I like the idea of nearby buff mechanism, that may add/remove some challenges, but I believe it'll be frustrating at some point. Maybe have a debuff that mobs put on players that have the same nearby mechanism but negatively on the party members if close to the affected player.

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Can someone explain how "weaker the buffs will be that the classes will have on their own" for example:

Me & my friend start a Hawker+Soldier and using the buffs that have been given to our classes 

compared to having a cleric lvl 200 + with decent INT's buffs? 


Isn't it possible to leave the cleric in some way as it's always been since you can go Mage if you want to do magic DPS? 
And keep the buffs every class has been given, so you don't HAVE to have a cleric with you, but if you have - you get some better buffs. 

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32 minutes ago, erko said:

compared to having a cleric lvl 200 + with decent INT's buffs? 

I just wanna point out that INT does not affect buffs or healing, charm does, as I mentionned in my reply from yesterday in this thread...

I just think that saying should remain the way they are "because that's the way it was" doesn't make it a good argument. Women used to not have the right to vote, thank god they do now.

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7 hours ago, Vexoi said:

I just wanna point out that INT does not affect buffs or healing, charm does, as I mentionned in my reply from yesterday in this thread...

I just think that saying should remain the way they are "because that's the way it was" doesn't make it a good argument. Women used to not have the right to vote, thank god they do now.

Different versions of Rose use different stats to increase buff potency. I don’t remember which version used which but I believe NARose used Int for buffs whereas iRose used CHA. & comparing womens rights to vote to an in game character’s stat distribution and play style is irrelevant context that does nothing to support wanting a GAME CLASS that had no social scrutiny placed on it as a valid argument. 
Offer better solution’s than blank posts about. My suggestions were to enhance different aspects of game diversity something you are clamoring poorly about. 

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Well, I must say there's some .. subject, aspect of the question, that we didn't covered well here : the fact is, original Cleric buffs were insane and encouraged too much dual client, we aaaaaaaall agree on that ... BUT, in a way this let motivated people farm effectively their own stuff, from scratch : by creating noob chars to farm low lvl maps (for exclusive drops, when there used to be some). Even the charm bourgs were a thing at some point, to farm the Main Quest when it used to be worth it ! (many hearts, "Spark/Ice/Blood Charms", Gems, etc, quite fast). Not mentioning the "Devil Pest" / Junon's King mobs quest (from the famous Jones ;)) since it was affiliated to exploit because the original devs didn't expect some players to log 10 bourgs and take 12 proofs for each, making 3*10 Gem3 in one row lol ...

Anyway, my point is this schema encouraged people to farm their own stuff (from hearts, gems, refines and even feathers for wings), giving them much satisfaction, seeing your buffs improving after each of these farm session. This is the least of the argument, but just so you can partly understand some people enjoyed this gameplay aspect. The other important "virtuous circle" coming from this, was that it made many high lvl Clerics were always wandering in Junon / low lvl maps, helping new players by buffing them and partying them sometimes (when they were not  selfish **hole ofc .. :p), even just making the maps look active, when no party were there anymore ...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this system should be implemented again, anyway everyone who played this version probably had enough of it.

But, all in all, what I wanted to bring is : this (with drops exclusive to some mobs & maps) was definitely a key in the game replayability, since I think Junon is the #1 planet in many players heart, we all enjoy getting back there and play around these bright coloured & shiny maps, farming these funny mobs 🙂 My question is : how would you replace this mechanism to make Junon maps still active after the first month of the game ?

PS : some idea I came up with, would be to make the game waaaaaay less based on buffs, maybe by increasing all the player base stats, maybe just giving some fancy buffs to some classes, but actually I think buffs shouldn't be that important to make everything balanced and enjoyable. On a finished game, the thing that should make the difference should be the player equipment + build + skill, no buffs needed. And for this I find Rose in the actual state really misses stuff content diversity etc, and even mobs are too strong to be killed effectively in solo, without buffs.

PPS : another idea, which was probably in plans for some day, would be to insert high lvl dungeons entrance in low lvl maps like Zant etc, but I don't know if it would be enough ... I'm aware of the "Medaillon" to farm from Junon Kings for high lvl, but this led every Junon Kings to be insanely too hard for players of appropriate levels to try them ... So it wouldn't be a solution neither

Edited by Sefy
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iRose buffs scaled off INT [if you were a Cleric**]
Evo buffs scaled off the stat being buffed [buff sets]
NARose buffs scaled primarily off CHA, secondarily off Class Stat. [Common misconception, but class main stat does increase buffs, just not as much as CHA]

Generally speaking: if you do not know these facts, I question your ability to accurately* provide discussion points as fact in a debate or conversation regarding the state of Classes, Builds or Stats. You simply lack the knowledge and experience. You can and are encouraged however to provide your subjective opinion or feelings regarding a change. It might hold less merit than experience and testing, but it still is a factor.

Lastly, don't try to win an argument via insults. There are rules against it, besides the fact it comes off as an incensed balk, and not a true counter point. 
My personal opinion is Cleric are the most influential, powerful, omni-class in the game. The simple fact the buffs being changed is the biggest discussion is proof of how overly reliant upon Cleric and Buffs the players are. I have accepted to a fraction of a degree, that players will never accept ROSE without buffs. So changing the reliance for said buffs from a singular class [who is also the sole healer, and more than capable of tanking several players/monsters while dealing competent damage and crowd control]  is justified and later to arrive than it should have. (I have used both my opinion, and facts to explain my stance here)

**Depends on source code, version and/or server

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On 2/4/2022 at 5:54 PM, ShogunHiira said:

countering what is or was known as “buff slaves”: clerics on a second account and client, there only to buff one’s other characters.

On 2/4/2022 at 5:54 PM, ShogunHiira said:

#1: A crit up & damage up buff in the form of a link*; a cleric can form a link with party members, increasing dmg and crit chance / severity so long as they stay in range of the cleric. The link is only active within this range.

#2: A single life sharing + hp & def boost link* with one character, that works the same as the previously mentioned ability; however it can only be cast on one target at a time.

*I’m using “link” because I just believe that something like this is a very cool idea; but of course an easier way is to just have it so party members need to be close by. It would only work within a party, and is on a short-ish timer of say 1 or 2 minutes and needs to be actively maintained in between healing.

I just have to point out the unintentional humor in this. You mention how clerics were slaves to support and then your suggestion was to literally chain us to our target(s) and that just killed me. 

I am by no means bashing your ideas! I think they're good and I like em. I just had to share how it made me laugh and then ultimately cry because as a healer it doesnt matter how essential we are, there is always gonna be some degree of abuse.

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Ive read a few points on this, and id be sad to see the clerics identity completely changed, making the cleric basically mage 2.0.

I feel like there are a lot of ways cleric could both keep the buffs but also making it a more active class. 

Making the buffs group wide only (if you leave the party your buffs are cancelled) and within a specific range of the cleric and increasing their cooldown, while reducing their duration within the group. Meaning you would need to rebuff more often and stay grouped. Maybe even having to rotate between offensive and defensive buffs. (If some of you played Aion, youd remember something similar to Chanter mantras).

Ive also read that the scaling of the buffs changed a few times, but hopefully some sort of gear progression reason to keep pushing gear would be kept support wise, than just doing more damage for a heal/support class. 

Either way I will wait to see what changes have been really made within the Closed Beta and then will be easily to give feedback. If buffs do get removed it will be sad to see them gone, being able to go into lower levels and just interact with new players and help them out was one of the things I enjoyed a lot. So hopefully some form of that, even if weaker buffs would still be nice to have.

 

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I honestly do not understand why people are still going on about this topic. Its sad to see how a game mechanic gets punished because of an exploit(dual-clienting). I understand why some are against clerics having all the buffs but they forget that our buffs aren't strong through the entire game its mainly end game and really only when you purchased the IM buffs that you saw the difference really. People a;ways complain about buff slaves etc but almost everyone created a cleric on a 2nd account to buff their mains, I remember when f/s clerics were in parties with tankers then they'd asked them to help kill the mobs (it's like asking the cleaner to do your job after he has done his) no offense to anyone who is in that profession just trying to make my point more clearer.

@OwlchemistVilehealing skill is quite limited for party's really because our max healing is 4K(speaking under correction as i never was a f/s) which is far less than most tankers HP also with the skill cooldown negating it really being effective on its own, so we will also have to use potions/pots/meats etc in addition to healing (vigor water instant heals with no cool down so spammable) and the fact that we have little to no def also so we can not take on multiple mobs successfully unless mana shield is activated and that also gets negated due to the fact that we have decent damage so killing mobs will take much longer which we have to achieve by sacrificing either healing buffs or max buffs added to the different summon types you have to decide on as well.

Clerics are great the way they are its on of my favourite classes to play i enjoy the challenges it brings.

 

Edited by Ashura
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Ashura, I hate to be short about this but, almost everything you said was outdated or wrong.
IM buffs on NA aren't more powerful, they only lasted longer.
Buffs were and are good through out the entire leveling process.
Heals are way bigger than 4k, and you're not counting fires, heals, and healing over time all stack. 
Vigor Water doesn't exist in NA. All HP potions in GA modes [Arenas, Dungeons etc] have a cooldown and food isn't allowed.

Cleric are great, that part was correct. But your view of things isn't of NA, I can tell it's very much influenced by either iRose or private servers. It's very much not accurate to the current NA client the DEV's are using. 

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A change i would actually like is to still give the cleric class all the offensive buffs, but make them an AOE that lasts for only a minute or so, while also giving the cleric more damage related skills. This way you can join in on dealing damage, but you also need to actively buff, paying attention to all party members and their buff state. 

To remove offensive buffs from the cleric is to strip its identity completely, so i think it's a bad idea to do that. To change it into a support character of the likes of WoW, ESO and FFIV would be a better decision imo. Also we really don't need another damage class, because we already have 6 classes who do that.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

I'm more inclined to a total revamp of the class, change even the name, turn it into Witch/Wizard class, specialized in debuffs, curses and damage-over-time skills... maybe even necromancy... a class made to ruin the enemies life... 😛

Edited by Nadwin
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Posted (edited)
On 4/12/2022 at 2:57 AM, FrameXdrop said:

A change i would actually like is to still give the cleric class all the offensive buffs, but make them an AOE that lasts for only a minute or so, while also giving the cleric more damage related skills. This way you can join in on dealing damage, but you also need to actively buff, paying attention to all party members and their buff state. 

To remove offensive buffs from the cleric is to strip its identity completely, so i think it's a bad idea to do that. To change it into a support character of the likes of WoW, ESO and FFIV would be a better decision imo. Also we really don't need another damage class, because we already have 6 classes who do that.

i love this idea of having aoe buffs this would solve all of the problems and avoid it being a buffslave and make it more interactive and hard. love love this. and yeah it is unfortunately striping cleric of it identity but i highly doubt they will go back on these changes i think they already are too far in =/

Edited by Averybee24601
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