General Cleric change discussion

[Dyingchant]

running back and forth in junon to look for a cleric as your buffs ran out.. only to find no clerics so you go back to training with your crappy un-buffed character..

its jarring when the difference between (high level) buffed and un-buffed was 2-3x the rate of killing monsters. its absurd tbh. getting buffed is like taking your weights off as rock lee - you turn super saiyan. but when your buffs ran out, and you couldnt find a cleric, you gotta suck your thumb, put on your big boy weights again, and fight everything underwater. everything felt laughably slow.

just my thoughts as a narose casual, i have not clue how the dynamics work in the end game as ive never reached there before. i support the changes, but i honestly couldnt care less about whether the devs changed clerics or not. i learned my lesson, and plan on dual-clienting with my buff slut. i wont be waddling around junon with my atrocious movement speed looking for handouts. ive ascended.

[Tacticalshot]

I agree with Dyingchant on this one 100%. I can remember getting ready for my evening knowing I was about to spend the next few hours at the lake, mines, forest etc.. to level. So before I left I did my check list: gear repaired
Mana health food
Ammo for launcher

Inventory empty
Port scrolls
 

now to find the nice cleric…. When it did happen I’d haul tail to my farming zone and just get into the spawn synchronization of killing and the buffs were blinking. Portal rinse & repeat (that was a good night).

The bad night all the above but with the clerics AFK or just not feeling it at the moment in which case I’d usually just log for the evening. 
 

When you can literally feel the difference from buffs to no buffs it’s not worth the time to go without. I like the idea of giving the clerics the OMG factor but not at the expense of devaluing my own toon when I don’t have them. It ruined a lot of progression. For me anyways. I like the individual class buffs. Made people want to come together more than just dry hump the nearest shiny AF cleric until you can see the buffs from your toon from space. 

[Wondertje]

Wouldn't leaving Clerics the way they were (old school f/s buffers) and add class boosts for single player characters be what everyone wants? If you want to play solo - you have your class buffs. If you want to play in team, one can be a f/s, one could be not (just make sure the buffs don't stack), and if you want to do multi-client you can do that too. That way literally everyone can get basic buffs for themselves, and are still encouraged to play in teams at higher levels.

[Amafi]

Just wondering, clerics were meant to be a support class. But in creation they were only doing the buffs in a cycle and an occasional heal.

What if the role would be more active. Instead of buffing the party, make them actively debuff the mobs. (Omdenken in dutch )

So def down, a-speed down and what not. This would help cleric solo far more easily, but also be helpfull and beeing an attribute to all  

 

[Bobbity]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but clerics do the following:

- Heal (single-target, party-wide, group-wide, AOE)

- Resurrect (single-target)

- Buff (single-target, party-wide, group-wide)

- Summon (swords, elementals, bonfire)

- Tank (just a bit...)

- DPS (sometimes, not their actual job)

(They also have a True Sight skill common to other classes that doesn't need discussion at this point. )

 

and our main problem is that clerics are abused in doing these tasks. People create a cleric and multiclient them, simply using them as bots. We find this offensive and disrespectful. (?) We also find them to be something of an omniclass if geared correctly, so they're an eyesore of game design failure as well. A critical point of failure, proven by the existence of this discussion, as mentioned earlier.

 

So far, we've got half a solution for the buffs aspect of the problem, in that class buffs exist. Could we do something similar such as the following:

- Heal (easier potions, AOE potion 'mists') <-- Mainly Dealers but Hawkers could have some form of beastcrafting or flower-based pet that spreads healing pollen in an area of effect. Champions could have a lifesteal effect, an upgrade to their existing active skill. 

- Resurrect <- also a potion like in the quest lore. (Likely more expensive and difficult)

- Summon <- Currently, Hawkers and Dealers can summon freely. I'd like it if that changed a little bit, especially on the Dealer side so they can make more interesting things, such as...

- Tank <- mini-CGs that are built to tank and to...

- DPS <- deal damage as well. Dealers could also have a crafted mini-turret they use for sustained DPS instead of Hunters (something we could re-allocate to either Hawkers or Muses for early-game leveling. Basically, a launcher/gun on a tripod or whatever.

Hawker summons could of course be mesmerized/dominated/raised/bred to tank, DPS or both, maybe to a better extent than Dealer crafted summons. Dealer summons could have the advantage of endless modular design vs the long breeding cycles of Hawker pet maturation. Of course, we have dedicated tanks and damage dealers in our soldiers and hawkers.

 

So, with this, the powers of clerics have either been replicated or redistributed. No more 'Let our powers combine.' Does this solve our problem? I say no for two reasons:

- This solution doesn't advance the power fantasy of clerics, the intoxication of buffing a lowbie player to the level of a demigod.

- People will still follow the path of least resistance and multiclient. They (will) want it all.

My feeling is, this is a mentality issue, rather than one of mechanics. Saying clerics are a support class is different from saying it is THE support class. The latter implies that clerics were designed to have all the support skills and ONLY the support skills - to be the bots we have turned them into. Sure, if the solution I offered here were to be implemented, eventually, people would see it as a viable alternative. They might even enjoy it more than dual clienting, especially if the client develops to become more resource-hungry.

 

I saw those link skills proposed earlier, basically some sort of heartbeat ability and people's reaction to it. I feel there's potential in this if we tweak it a lot. I'm going to violate forum rules by presenting another mini-suggestion: instead of party buffs, rather have multiple single-target 'heart links'
-linked targets gain a fraction of cleric's DEF, MDEF, HP, MP and AS as bonus combat stats.
-value of bonuses gained depends on how active the cleric plays. Higher Actions Per Minute = stronger heartbeat = more potent bonuses

Could have some nice nifty heart icons that throb, or the hp/mp bar in the Party interface could throb at different speeds based on the strength of that individual heartlink.

 

Anyway, have fun with this and trying to free yourself of the cleric power trip.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Bobbity
Left out some words again, sigh.

[Vile]

1 hour ago, Bobbity said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but clerics do the following:

- Heal (single-target, party-wide, group-wide, AOE)

- Resurrect (single-target)

- Buff (single-target, party-wide, group-wide)

- Summon (swords, elementals, bonfire)

- Tank (just a bit...)

- DPS (sometimes, not their actual job)

(They also have a True Sight skill common to other classes that doesn't need discussion at this point. )

 

and our main problem is that clerics are abused in doing these tasks. People create a cleric and multiclient them, simply using them as bots. We find this offensive and disrespectful. (?) We also find them to be something of an omniclass if geared correctly, so they're an eyesore of game design failure as well. A critical point of failure, proven by the existence of this discussion, as mentioned earlier.

 

So far, we've got half a solution for the buffs aspect of the problem, in that class buffs exist. Could we do something similar such as the following:

- Heal (easier potions, AOE potion 'mists') <-- Mainly Dealers but Hawkers could have some form of beastcrafting or flower-based pet that spreads healing pollen in an area of effect. Champions could have a lifesteal effect, an upgrade to their existing active skill. 

- Resurrect <- also a potion like in the quest lore. (Likely more expensive and difficult)

- Summon <- Currently, Hawkers and Dealers can summon freely. I'd like it if that changed a little bit, especially on the Dealer side so they can make more interesting things, such as...

- Tank <- mini-CGs that are built to tank and to...

- DPS <- deal damage as well. Dealers could also have a crafted mini-turret they use for sustained DPS instead of Hunters (something we could re-allocate to either Hawkers or Muses for early-game leveling. Basically, a launcher/gun on a tripod or whatever.

Hawker summons could of course be mesmerized/dominated/raised/bred to tank, DPS or both, maybe to a better extent than Dealer crafted summons. Dealer summons could have the advantage of endless modular design vs the long breeding cycles of Hawker pet maturation. Of course, we have dedicated tanks and damage dealers in our soldiers and hawkers.

 

So, with this, the powers of clerics have either been replicated or redistributed. No more 'Let our powers combine.' Does this solve our problem? I say no for two reasons:

- This solution doesn't advance the power fantasy of clerics, the intoxication of buffing a lowbie player to the level of a demigod.

- People will still follow the path of least resistance and multiclient. They (will) want it all.

My feeling is, this is a mentality issue, rather than one of mechanics. Saying clerics are a support class is different from saying it is THE support class. The latter implies that clerics were designed to have all the support skills and ONLY the support skills - to be the bots we have turned them into. Sure, if the solution I offered here were to be implemented, eventually, people would see it as a viable alternative. They might even enjoy it more than dual clienting, especially if the client develops to become more resource-hungry.

 

I saw those link skills proposed earlier, basically some sort of heartbeat ability and people's reaction to it. I feel there's potential in this if we tweak it a lot. I'm going to violate forum rules by presenting another mini-suggestion: instead of party buffs, rather have multiple single-target 'heart links'
-linked targets gain a fraction of cleric's DEF, MDEF, HP, MP and AS as bonus combat stats.
-value of bonuses gained depends on how active the cleric plays. Higher Actions Per Minute = stronger heartbeat = more potent bonuses

Could have some nice nifty heart icons that throb, or the hp/mp bar in the Party interface could throb at different speeds based on the strength of that individual heartlink.

 

Anyway, have fun with this and trying to free yourself of the cleric power trip.

 

 

What?

[Vile]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:59 AM, Wondertje said:

Wouldn't leaving Clerics the way they were (old school f/s buffers) and add class boosts for single player characters be what everyone wants? If you want to play solo - you have your class buffs. If you want to play in team, one can be a f/s, one could be not (just make sure the buffs don't stack), and if you want to do multi-client you can do that too. That way literally everyone can get basic buffs for themselves, and are still encouraged to play in teams at higher levels.

1: Why spend SP on weaker buffs, if Clerics have all buffs and are better. Result: No one gets buffs [We did this from Evo to NA update]
2: Why spend SP on buffs, if Clerics take all buffs and they're Equal in proportion. Cleric is going to take them no matter what, so save the SP.
3: Every class has their own buffs [and they do] and are BETTER than Cleric buffs. Now you run into the issue of Clerics saying because they only ever had buffs and nothing else to do, they don't have a point. [which is a lie btw, they can do more than buff, they just appealed for 15 years to people who can't be asked to press more than 8 buttons every 15 minutes]. 

In short. You can't win. Either clerics lose their special little "I'm important sticker" and play on equal terms with everyone else, with a few buffs to their DPS options and a rework to active healing, or they remain over-powered and no one takes any buffs, nor plays the game at all, logs out, if they can't find a Cleric to buff them,. Which is bad for business. 

That is unless you have so ultra giga-brain move that some how can make DPS take their buffs, while Clerics also take their buffs whilst neither remove the importance of the other. Tip: There is 1 solution, and I'll be impressed if anyone guesses it. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by OwlchemistVile

[Wondertje]

Do point out where in my text I said that cleric buffs would be better. As far as I'm concerned the cleric buffs and class buffs can be totally equal - just different sources of obtaining them for different players. Options, options, options - the one thing all games need to survive.

[Vile]

Explain precisely how you think it should work, cause I probly already covered it and you just haven't realized. 

[Wondertje]

Not sure which part you haven't understood of what's been previously said by me and others. Clerics have buffs, classes have buffs, buff scrolls exist, all buffs are equal. If you wish to play fully solo you can use your class buff and/or scrolls, if you wish to play with a party you can get more people's class buffs (they do this in their streams a lot) and/or fill out with scrolls and if you wish to play solo multi-client you can also get buffs. No one is without buffs, no one is a slave to anyone and everyone has the option to play exactly however they want. Solo. Friends. Randos. You make the game what you want it to be and what best suits your needs. It's not really that complex of a concept - full access to everyone in whatever way works best for them.

[Vile]

"Not sure which part you haven't understood"
Never said I don't understand, I asked you to lay it all out, so I can show you where you're missing the point.

"Clerics have buffs, classes have buffs, buff scrolls exist, all buffs are equal."
1: They're not currently equal, 2: If you're proposing they be equal, see point 2: "2: Why spend SP on buffs, if Clerics take all buffs and they're Equal in proportion. Cleric is going to take them no matter what, so save the SP."

" if you wish to play with a party you can get more people's class buffs ..."
Why would I have class buffs, if Clerics are taking all their buffs [and presumably have all buffs]. Why would any class other than Clerics have them if they're equal, You'd be wasting points.

"...(they do this in their streams a lot)"
They have class buffs on Stream because their Cleric can't give them all the buffs. They wouldn't take them, if the Cleric was there giving them the buffs [especially if they're equal]

"if you wish to play solo multi-client you can also get buffs"
If you're playing solo or multiclienting, it doesn't matter what the buff source is, you have multiple sources by virtue of multi clienting....

"No one is without buffs, no one is a slave to anyone"
If you have Clerics with all Buffs, equal to class buffs, they guaranteed will be stat sticks / buff slaves. We know this, because it's been that way for many years before.

"everyone has the option to play exactly however they want"
If you give 1 Class all buffs on equal terms, they will opt to default expect that class has all buffs so they can spend their skill points on more defensive or damage skills. 

"and/or fill out with scrolls"
If scrolls are equal to buffs, No one will take buffs period. They'll all save their SP spending them on Defense/Damage, and Clerics would only get invited if they needed the healing. I doubt this is what you want.

"Solo. Friends. Randos. You make the game what you want it to be and what best suits your needs. It's not really that complex of a concept - full access to everyone in whatever way works best for them."
This is just a bunch of word soup and doesn't solve the problem, the one I outlined earlier that you responded to with "tHaTs nOt wHaT I sAiD" 

[Bobbity]

45 minutes ago, OwlchemistVile said:

What?

Thanks!

[Vile]

1 minute ago, Bobbity said:

Thanks!

Bless you. 

[Wondertje]

1 hour ago, OwlchemistVile said:

"Not sure which part you haven't understood"
Never said I don't understand, I asked you to lay it all out, so I can show you where you're missing the point.

"Clerics have buffs, classes have buffs, buff scrolls exist, all buffs are equal."
1: They're not currently equal, 2: If you're proposing they be equal, see point 2: "2: Why spend SP on buffs, if Clerics take all buffs and they're Equal in proportion. Cleric is going to take them no matter what, so save the SP."

" if you wish to play with a party you can get more people's class buffs ..."
Why would I have class buffs, if Clerics are taking all their buffs [and presumably have all buffs]. Why would any class other than Clerics have them if they're equal, You'd be wasting points.

"...(they do this in their streams a lot)"
They have class buffs on Stream because their Cleric can't give them all the buffs. They wouldn't take them, if the Cleric was there giving them the buffs [especially if they're equal]

"if you wish to play solo multi-client you can also get buffs"
If you're playing solo or multiclienting, it doesn't matter what the buff source is, you have multiple sources by virtue of multi clienting....

"No one is without buffs, no one is a slave to anyone"
If you have Clerics with all Buffs, equal to class buffs, they guaranteed will be stat sticks / buff slaves. We know this, because it's been that way for many years before.

"everyone has the option to play exactly however they want"
If you give 1 Class all buffs on equal terms, they will opt to default expect that class has all buffs so they can spend their skill points on more defensive or damage skills. 

"and/or fill out with scrolls"
If scrolls are equal to buffs, No one will take buffs period. They'll all save their SP spending them on Defense/Damage, and Clerics would only get invited if they needed the healing. I doubt this is what you want.

"Solo. Friends. Randos. You make the game what you want it to be and what best suits your needs. It's not really that complex of a concept - full access to everyone in whatever way works best for them."
This is just a bunch of word soup and doesn't solve the problem, the one I outlined earlier that you responded to with "tHaTs nOt wHaT I sAiD" 

Interesting whataboutism, I disagree with your assessment though. It's pretty simple, you think something, other people think differently.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Wondertje

[Vile]

No, I'm speaking from experience. We've conducted these experiments on NA over the course of over half a decade, in some cases more. Some people are objectively wrong with things, feelings don't over ride facts. Deal with it and learn to take an L when you've been dealt one. 

[Wondertje]

There's no L given, sweet of you think so though. I recommend Zoe Bee on Youtube "Facts DO care about your feelings" - you might learn a thing or two as she explains why you're wrong (along with Ben Shapiro and others).

Your 'experience' is no more valid than anyone elses. Everyone in this forum has plenty of experience, stretching over decades and more usually - you're not unique or alone in that. There's nothing objectively wrong (or right for that matter) with what you think would happen if something changed. These are not territories that were tested in NA, these are different and the obstacles and variables are different. Hence why it's called a change.

[Vile]

They're the same hoops we jumped through. And it's not me, it's literally hundreds who experienced the NA changes, potentially thousands. We all know how it goes with buffs. And you're right, my experience isn't any more valuable than those of equal experience, but it is more valuable than those with little to no experience and are pontificating out their blow holes about things they clearly know next to nothing about. 

That facts are facts. You can't have all buffs without making yourself more important than any individual class with only 1/4th the buff options, while keeping buffs important to gameplay, AND discourage people from just stacking all their alts in a party to level themselves and not participate in the MMO aspect of the game. There's a compromise you have to make, and iRose zealots aren't willing to meet in the middle because it goes against their perception of what "makes Rose what it is". And for some reason that includes Clerics at the center of the game world. 

And I'm not going to look up those two people, especially if it leads to whatever thought process you think is making you correct in this. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by OwlchemistVile

[Wondertje]

5 minutes ago, OwlchemistVile said:

but it is more valuable than those with little to no experience

Lucky for you I have 15+ years of ROSE experience. Since you like 'fact' dropping so much. Not that I agree with you of its relevancy. It's a sign of an intelligent mind to entertain other people's point of view, and I agree that compromises are important. That does not by any means mean I have to agree with the full scope of what is currently being changed. Luckily, you're not a developer so you're not the one I have to convince or explain my thought process to. I'm sure the developers here are both smart enough, and dedicated enough to read what's said by everyone active here on the forum and take it into account when they do their work.

[Vile]

Unfortunately for you, I did work with the Developers for Na ROSE. So when it comes to how things went and work in NA Rose, I what you might consider.... "A well informed individual, bordering expert". I don't particularly care for the appeal to authority fallacy however, since it's not needed to point to the historical development process that happened in NA, and demonstrate that we did indeed try many things with buffs. We have a catalog of things we tried, many, many times. I don't particularly care that you have 15 years of experience, good for you, I have 18, it doesn't matter. 

And you're right, they DO read everything, I applaud them for putting up with it too. Because there's a lot of inane debate over things they've already committed to putting up to test as they've decided. And I know for a fact that they're not completely ignorant of how things went in NA, so asking them to repeat the same mistakes and jeopardize what is probably the very last chance ROSE has to succeed in an official capacity, is likely going to be met with refusal. And if I see them starting to stick their hand in the boiling oil [metaphor fyi] I'll give them a sharp and quick warning to not do that. Weather your "15 years of experience" agree or not. 

[Wondertje]

15 minutes ago, OwlchemistVile said:

And you're right, they DO read everything, I applaud them for putting up with it too.

For once we're in agreement.

[Vile]

I've agreed with you before, you missed it because you were trying to find something to argue with me about. 

[LordAlbion]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:59 PM, Wondertje said:

Wouldn't leaving Clerics the way they were (old school f/s buffers) and add class boosts for single player characters be what everyone wants? If you want to play solo - you have your class buffs. If you want to play in team, one can be a f/s, one could be not (just make sure the buffs don't stack), and if you want to do multi-client you can do that too. That way literally everyone can get basic buffs for themselves, and are still encouraged to play in teams at higher levels.

100% in agreement.

[Ilsalay]

9 hours ago, OwlchemistVile said:

1: Why spend SP on weaker buffs, if Clerics have all buffs and are better. Result: No one gets buffs [We did this from Evo to NA update]
2: Why spend SP on buffs, if Clerics take all buffs and they're Equal in proportion. Cleric is going to take them no matter what, so save the SP.
3: Every class has their own buffs [and they do] and are BETTER than Cleric buffs. Now you run into the issue of Clerics saying because they only ever had buffs and nothing else to do, they don't have a point. [which is a lie btw, they can do more than buff, they just appealed for 15 years to people who can't be asked to press more than 8 buttons every 15 minutes]. 

In short. You can't win. Either clerics lose their special little "I'm important sticker" and play on equal terms with everyone else, with a few buffs to their DPS options and a rework to active healing, or they remain over-powered and no one takes any buffs, nor plays the game at all, logs out, if they can't find a Cleric to buff them,. Which is bad for business. 

That is unless you have so ultra giga-brain move that some how can make DPS take their buffs, while Clerics also take their buffs whilst neither remove the importance of the other. Tip: There is 1 solution, and I'll be impressed if anyone guesses it. 

This is pretty spot on.

Clerics are (were?) essentially buff Gods. As people in this thread have stated if they couldn't get touched by an angel, they likely wouldn't even play that evening.

Cleric buffs need to be divided amongst the other classes. Clerics keep one or two unique to them buffs, the other classes get the rest in whatever placement makes the most sense. To compensate, they can get a buff that increases summons/mercenaries specifically. Clerics are now summoners. Or something. I don't know.

It's been years since I played actual NA Rose - and am unaware of the state of the game until the end. But seems like Clerics at the end of NA, and still currently in all private servers, are absolutely necessary for anyone to feel like they are making any sort of progress when playing. Sure do love logging in, waddling around town spamming "buffz plox" for 5-15 minutes before being blessed or giving up. Or dual boxing my own Cleric and dragging/porting it around places.

I know there's a party lvl system, but I don't recall what it actually does when the party lvl increases. Maybe something could be added to parties to boost everyone's stats or HP and Damage by 5% per party member. And if it's already something that is part of the party lvl, the more party members you have would make the bonus multiplicative, instead of additive. Which in some form could be in competition of NOT having a Cleric with god buffs, just at the risk of not having heals. And if you do have a Cleric in the party, then you're just blasting on all cylinders and having a good time.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Ilsalay

[Architect]

I totally agree with @cyaneyedlion 100%

[Ashura]

8 hours ago, Architect said:

I totally agree with @cyaneyedlion 100%

Which post?