General Cleric change discussion

[Architect]

@ashura Oh about not changing the cleric class too much. Back in the ROSE days even though clerics were referred to as "buff slaves" They were praised as well. With cleric buffs it made any class feel OP and us who received the buffs were always so thankful! I was just agreeing with Cyan about not changing them out of their intended role of being a support class. Any who I can't wait for launch day

[Anbis]

6 hours ago, Architect said:

@ashura Oh about not changing the cleric class too much. Back in the ROSE days even though clerics were referred to as "buff slaves" They were praised as well. With cleric buffs it made any class feel OP and us who received the buffs were always so thankful! I was just agreeing with Cyan about not changing them out of their intended role of being a support class. Any who I can't wait for launch day

Cleric was my main class i played, and i agree that changing them away from their intended role as a primary support class would only hinder the class and the game. Its been way to long since i last played the game hard core to really provide really good points to add to the discussion but i will at least express my opinion based on my time in game as i had around 12 to 15 clerics in total and maybe 1 or 2 of each of the other jobs and was mostly only PVE. I played mostly when round shield with a T7 on them was actually a real build. I loved the idea of being able to build pure support plus Def so i was able to stand in the middle of everything and still buff and heal.

I believe that the clerics role should be more of being thrown into the fray without attacking to get the full benefit of the cleric's buffs. I personally rarely stood off to the side at max range healing next to the fire i was up close running around healing and having to take hits every so often to keep everyone healed and buffed. and only moved back to the fire for MP reasons. I also feel like buff slaves should be less of a thing, they were useful and i used my cleric like that myself from time to time and would sit in zant or junon buffing people as they left town when my main party was offline just for the fun of it.

Side opinion, I feel like the offensive Clerics/ summon Clerics should be based off a different stat then pure support clerics. Any time i tired to run an offensive cleric it just felt like they were basically scorned for not having buffs or not being strong enough that it was just plan out better to just play mage.

[Architect]

Cheers! @Anbis Love your response haha! Hope to see you in game!

[Ashura]

3 hours ago, Anbis said:

Cleric was my main class i played, and i agree that changing them away from their intended role as a primary support class would only hinder the class and the game. Its been way to long since i last played the game hard core to really provide really good points to add to the discussion but i will at least express my opinion based on my time in game as i had around 12 to 15 clerics in total and maybe 1 or 2 of each of the other jobs and was mostly only PVE. I played mostly when round shield with a T7 on them was actually a real build. I loved the idea of being able to build pure support plus Def so i was able to stand in the middle of everything and still buff and heal.

I believe that the clerics role should be more of being thrown into the fray without attacking to get the full benefit of the cleric's buffs. I personally rarely stood off to the side at max range healing next to the fire i was up close running around healing and having to take hits every so often to keep everyone healed and buffed. and only moved back to the fire for MP reasons. I also feel like buff slaves should be less of a thing, they were useful and i used my cleric like that myself from time to time and would sit in zant or junon buffing people as they left town when my main party was offline just for the fun of it.

Side opinion, I feel like the offensive Clerics/ summon Clerics should be based off a different stat then pure support clerics. Any time i tired to run an offensive cleric it just felt like they were basically scorned for not having buffs or not being strong enough that it was just plan out better to just play mage.

That is what we all are trying to tell everyone. Myself included hated the buff slave term but it was the play style some preferred so i didnt see it as a problem and I also solo'ed for most of my playing career, i hated the fact that i had to stand around and just heal and buff now and then.

I didn't like the summons(phantom sword) at all so weak and not really doing alot of damage, so i never used SP on them i would rather enhance my support skills and what little atk skills i had maxed it out.

[Ashura]

11 hours ago, Architect said:

@ashura Oh about not changing the cleric class too much. Back in the ROSE days even though clerics were referred to as "buff slaves" They were praised as well. With cleric buffs it made any class feel OP and us who received the buffs were always so thankful! I was just agreeing with Cyan about not changing them out of their intended role of being a support class. Any who I can't wait for launch day

NO worries i just wanted to know which post you were referring to as cyan had quite a few.

[Bobbity]

On a side note: if mana is from the gods / Arua / Luna and clerics are devotees of the gods, why do clerics have a weaker form of Mana Shield than mages? And yes, it's true that clerics get to have offhand items, Dragon Skin and buffs but thematically this is incorrect. Clerics are all about defense and support. Clearly, we should think about changing the defenses mages use - maybe have them keep the basic mana shield but provide them with varying mastery-related shields, like a fire skill (Heat Shield/Immolation), water (Guardian of the Waves), poison (Corrosive Skin) and so on. Might make a suggestion post on this later.

[CoffeeMuse]

On 2/4/2022 at 5:54 PM, ShogunHiira said:

Hello everyone!

Let me start by introducing myself.

For those of you that don’t know me, I am ShogunHiira, or Shogun_Hira#4832 on Discord. You may have seen me around on the ROSE online discord server, where I participate in debates from time to time. I am a 32 years old R

Thanks,

Hira

Howdy.  I also played iRose and later NARose and my first character was CoffeeMuse.  I played from around 2004-2010, where I met my wife who is from the UK, also a Rose Online player and forum moderator.  Life took over and the RoseNA went to an item mall so people could buy there way to high levels.  We eventually dropped out of the game and I read a few years ago NArose shut down.  Randomly today, I did a search and it appears there is a new Rose Online here starting up using the old code.  Pretty cool.  Anyway, a cleric here just dropping by to say high.  I imagine there may be some old Rose players here.

[RoseOnPlayer]

If you hadn't seen my suggestion about cleric, I would love if you will check it out.

The problem with buff slave cleric is not the buff itself but how the buff is designed. Cleric buffs are designed to have strong and significant effect with significant duration, the reason why they become buffs slaves. To fix this, there are ways to make makes buffs interactive in plays.

But before that, in my suggestion, I divided cleric into 3 main type: Heal-Specialist, Enhancer, and Battle Cleric. They can also have sub-types like mix of these qualities: Healer, Buffer, Summoner, Defensive, Offensive.

Let's discuss about the Enhancer type which is my proposal to fix cleric buffs. Enhancer clerics have the ability to cast short duration stackable buffs. This means that clerics must continue using abilities to maintain significant effect and focus on it. For example, casting between AP buff and DEF buff to maintain these buffs for your party.

You can check my full suggestion in the Suggestions forum.

[Delvonshi]

So I know I'm a bit late to this party but as an original battle cleric main I'd like to toss my hat in the ring.

I'm very for removing the buff slave aspect of the cleric as long as that power is distributed (however you want weapons, stats, or innate class buffs) or modifications are made to monsters to narrow that gap. That is all I have to say on that as it is pretty cut and dry.

 

Now in order to keep the cleric in it's own identity we should probably not focus on the battle portion as it was just a glorified auto attacker with magic damage. I want to focus on the summon aspect. I know this is shared with the Bourgeois but with the knowledge that summon control is something they are working on and the cleric already having an established identity with summons we could do something else.. steal a page out of Dofus's Osamadas class book. They are a summoner who provides buffs to their summons and team. What makes them unique is that the buffs on the summons work differently than those on players. The buffs for the summons often take the form of longer more generic buffs while the same spell on a player provides short term strong benefit. This lets them solo and have an active role in a party. I feel this direction would preserve both the buff and summon aspect of the summoner while providing strong reasons to be active in a party and retain strong solo power with the summons (option of chill or active playstyles). The main drawback is how hard it would be to code a skill to work differently on a summon vs a player.

Some examples would be:

-Shield of Arua: Provides X% (or +X) defense on a summon for Y minutes. When used on a player provides a 2-3 second invulnerability (or heavy damage reduction). Has uses in both pve and pvp. Specifically an over heavy pull's initial hit could be mitigated on your puller etc etc.

 

-Might of the Firegon: Provides X% (or +X) attack on a summon for Y minutes. When used on a player the next X abilities gain damage. Good to put on your best aoe'er during a pull or to alpha strike a troublesome target in pvp.

 

Anyway thats just a rough idea. Depending on implementation difficulties and reception it could be tweaked. At the very least hope it sparks some inspiration!

[Whoop]

I'm all for removing buff slaves, but for the sake of new players there should be a way to get buffs without being in a party with every class to get the buffs. Sometime after EA/Launch there won't be as much people leveling so getting buffs would be harder. I'll assume they keep buff pots in the game? these could be quest rewards or drops from captain type mobs for newer players to get buffs without a party.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Whoop

[Heatfist]

2 hours ago, Whoop said:

I'm all for removing buff slaves, but for the sake of new players there should be a way to get buffs without being in a party with every class to get the buffs. Sometime after EA/Launch there won't be as much people leveling so getting buffs would be harder. I'll assume they keep buff pots in the game? these could be quest rewards or drops from captain type mobs for newer players to get buffs without a party.

They mentioned that buff potions will be available and crafted by Artisans in older discord discussions. 

[Whoop]

57 minutes ago, Heatfist said:

They mentioned that buff potions will be available and crafted by Artisans in older discord discussions. 

That's good, but they should be available to new players is what I'm trying to say. The game is hard to get into and without buffs it'll be even worse. Making buff pots available to new players would be a great way for them to play.

[Avatar]

3 hours ago, Whoop said:

That's good, but they should be available to new players is what I'm trying to say. The game is hard to get into and without buffs it'll be even worse. Making buff pots available to new players would be a great way for them to play.

If I recall correctly this was still implemented before the shut down. Characters had a care package at the start of the game that provided them with buff pills or something. The first being available at level 10, then 18, 26, 34, 42, and 50. The level 50 package also gave you 2x exp for 10 min each and a mountable chicken for a month. 

Not sure if this has been taken out or not. 

[Whoop]

2 hours ago, Avatar said:

If I recall correctly this was still implemented before the shut down. Characters had a care package at the start of the game that provided them with buff pills or something. The first being available at level 10, then 18, 26, 34, 42, and 50. The level 50 package also gave you 2x exp for 10 min each and a mountable chicken for a month. 

Not sure if this has been taken out or not. 

Those are the boosters I'm pretty sure, thought they would remove those. 

[Wondertje]

Didn't Rebus say, several times, that buff potions are sold at an NPC?

EDIT: I've tried to find it somewhere, also on Discord but I can't find it right now and I'm a bit stressed so can't deep-dive. @RebusI'm sorry if I'm lying about you

Edited September 23, 2022 by Wondertje

[Heatfist]

1 hour ago, Wondertje said:

Didn't Rebus say, several times, that buff potions are sold at an NPC?

EDIT: I've tried to find it somewhere, also on Discord but I can't find it right now and I'm a bit stressed so can't deep-dive. @RebusI'm sorry if I'm lying about you

Yeah I remember that being mentioned too, but it seems some messages in discord have been removed/deleted. Someone’s been trying to hide the evidence.

[Wondertje]

Oh good, we can be crazy people together then!

[HoneyBuns]

There are combat potions in the Honor Shop that can only be used on pvp maps but buff potions that can be used on regular maps are only available thru crafting.  They are on the artisan skill tab and require various Zodiac Stones, depending on which potion. They last for 10 minutes. 

I don't remember them ever being in the Item Mall tho we did have Arua's Blessings in the IM I think  
 

[Rebus]

4 hours ago, Wondertje said:

Didn't Rebus say, several times, that buff potions are sold at an NPC?

EDIT: I've tried to find it somewhere, also on Discord but I can't find it right now and I'm a bit stressed so can't deep-dive. @RebusI'm sorry if I'm lying about you

Nope, I never said that. @percent1brought up buff potions a couple of times as an alternative to buffs, but only those made by artisans.

[Delvonshi]

Why do we need buff pots if it is likely to be redistributed to the classes? If you are worried about the newbie experience it is probably much easier to just redo the stats on the earlier mobs than to find a way to "buff" new players. You could also buff newbie equipment to get the same effect. I doubt it will be an issue with the type of direction things are going.

[Wondertje]

11 hours ago, Delvonshi said:

Why do we need buff pots if it is likely to be redistributed to the classes?

Because not everyone has the ability to play with an 8-person party to get access to all the buffs in a fair manner.

[Delvonshi]

On 9/26/2022 at 8:50 AM, Wondertje said:

Because not everyone has the ability to play with an 8-person party to get access to all the buffs in a fair manner.

I assume that the classes won't be buffing each other but themselves, that is how I'd do it anyway compared to now. I figure as long as everything is done right they won't need the entire roster of buffs to be functional. Just give them enough of what stats they typically use. Will probably help with various balancing as well.

[RoseOnPlayer]

On 9/26/2022 at 9:50 PM, Wondertje said:

Because not everyone has the ability to play with an 8-person party to get access to all the buffs in a fair manner.

Doesn't that just shift the slave mechanics from Cleric to Dealer/Artisan?

[Avatar]

16 minutes ago, RoseOnPlayer said:

Doesn't that just shift the slave mechanics from Cleric to Dealer/Artisan?

Not necessarily. 

Clerics are typically standing by the characters that are leveling and they don’t charge zulie for the buffs. The artisans would craft the potions and sell them to players. I don’t like using the term slave, but the free aspect of that is what makes it that way (in my opinion). 

I think what needs to happen is the game needs to be reworked. As it stands, there’s like no way of fighting normal without buffs. It’s like a necessity. 

[Wondertje]

9 hours ago, Delvonshi said:

I assume that the classes won't be buffing each other but themselves, that is how I'd do it anyway compared to now. I figure as long as everything is done right they won't need the entire roster of buffs to be functional. Just give them enough of what stats they typically use. Will probably help with various balancing as well.

As far as we're aware their idea is that each class has a buff to give to themselves and others, so a full 8-person party of different classes will all have full buffs.

------

Will it change from cleric to artisan?

My opinion? Yes, definitely. Not so much in the intention of the artisan itself, it can still do other things. But for the solo player it 100% simply shifts the attention. With buff pots from artisan being the only somewhat reliable source for a solo player their options will now be (and I've inserted cleric to show the similarities with the old situation):

A) Make their own artisan
- Same as dual clienting cleric and having a buff slave just shifted to crafting one specific item

B) Rely on other artisans to want to do it for you
- Same as having to rely on finding a cleric to play with you

C) Rely on the economy and the possibility of other artisans selling it on the market, which isn't a guarantee
- Same as having to find a cleric willing to sell their buffs, which was never a guarantee but happened regularly

The change isn't going to change the way buffs are ultimately distributed to the players. If anything, I'm pretty sure we will see a decline in the amount of clerics that are being played. The only reason it changes is because we're now placing the buff meta on to two different things: very large parties, or artisans. And because artisans can do other things as well, no one cares because "you still have options to do other things". Meanwhile not much has changed for solo players, other than making it more cumbersome to get buffs in the first place. I think the end result is going to be fewer clerics and more afk crafting artisans that don't actually play the game other than crafting. In other news, no real change to the "omg but people look online but are afk and it ruins the MMORPG aspect" that people keep complaining about.