General Cleric change discussion

[RoseOnPlayer]

2 hours ago, Avatar said:

Not necessarily. 

Clerics are typically standing by the characters that are leveling and they don’t charge zulie for the buffs. The artisans would craft the potions and sell them to players. I don’t like using the term slave, but the free aspect of that is what makes it that way (in my opinion). 

I think what needs to happen is the game needs to be reworked. As it stands, there’s like no way of fighting normal without buffs. It’s like a necessity. 

Does make sense. I was thinking that players will make their own crafter just for these buffs (the same way everyone made a buff slave). But with these being sold in the market, you don't have to make your own crafter.

Indeed, a player should be more reliant on their own buff skills rather than external buffs. That needs to be looked into.
 

[Delvonshi]

On 10/2/2022 at 8:56 AM, Wondertje said:

As far as we're aware their idea is that each class has a buff to give to themselves and others, so a full 8-person party of different classes will all have full buffs.
 

That is just terrible. I understand the need for a class to "bring" something to a party that is tangible like a buff but I don't think they understand the lengths people will go to for optimizing gameplay. Look at the new FLYFF. The buff class in there can't really buff enough until 102ish so people just drag around multiple copies with the missing buffs (skill point system). It is another game that feels bad when you don't have the appropriate buffs while leveling.

If this is the case we are better off just having one buffing class or the buff potion idea.

Something else of note, this always works in a vacuum but when actual gameplay happens buffs are not created equally. This causes disparity in party play for some classes outside of their normal roles, why they would want to open this box further as an "improvement" is beyond me.

[Whoop]

2 hours ago, Delvonshi said:

That is just terrible. I understand the need for a class to "bring" something to a party that is tangible like a buff but I don't think they understand the lengths people will go to for optimizing gameplay. Look at the new FLYFF. The buff class in there can't really buff enough until 102ish so people just drag around multiple copies with the missing buffs (skill point system). It is another game that feels bad when you don't have the appropriate buffs while leveling.

If this is the case we are better off just having one buffing class or the buff potion idea.

Something else of note, this always works in a vacuum but when actual gameplay happens buffs are not created equally. This causes disparity in party play for some classes outside of their normal roles, why they would want to open this box further as an "improvement" is beyond me.

Difference is that clients will be restricted to 2 per person, so you'll never have the best buffs when you play solo. Farming is going to be a pain. 

Also feel like my cleric is going from a heal/buff slave to just a heal slave, not much of an improvement. 

[Bobbity]

Can we think outside the box a bit and put the buff convo on the backburner? It doesn't look like we're getting anywhere with that anytime soon. What else can be done aside from casting/enhancing buffs and healing? 

[Vaztuz]

28 minutes ago, Bobbity said:

Can we think outside the box a bit and put the buff convo on the backburner? It doesn't look like we're getting anywhere with that anytime soon. What else can be done aside from casting/enhancing buffs and healing? 

    With the exception of Flames and Bonfire, Cleric summons were never mentioned. Maybe a summoner cleric as a crowd control role? Ice dragon summon for small range AOE slow, or even for emergency taunt/aggro whenever the tank dies or gets in trouble? I would like to have a summon where the only thing it does is follow raiders that are clocked. Something like the fairy buff. LoL.

[Bobbity]

I think summons were mentioned a good few times before the forum came online. There might be a summon-specific discussion somewhere now, but I'd have to check. Anyway, yes, that discussion needs to be revived. At the very least it should create diversity in cleric builds.

[Avatar]

4 hours ago, Whoop said:

Difference is that clients will be restricted to 2 per person, so you'll never have the best buffs when you play solo. Farming is going to be a pain. 

Also feel like my cleric is going from a heal/buff slave to just a heal slave, not much of an improvement. 

Im prepared to open 18 clients for buffs.

When there’s a will, there’s a way. 

[Delvonshi]

On 10/4/2022 at 3:20 PM, Vaztuz said:

    With the exception of Flames and Bonfire, Cleric summons were never mentioned. Maybe a summoner cleric as a crowd control role? Ice dragon summon for small range AOE slow, or even for emergency taunt/aggro whenever the tank dies or gets in trouble? I would like to have a summon where the only thing it does is follow raiders that are clocked. Something like the fairy buff. LoL.

I'd like to refer back to my original suggestion for clerics exactly one page back. I think this is the route to take.

 

[Sorgey]

I'm not really sure where the discussion is at right now (I just heard of this project, hello!), but I will say that the classic cleric is one of the biggest reasons that I loved ROSE online. I really, really enjoyed being able to dual-client with a cleric and a carry and it's the way I've always played the game. Not only is it fun and rewarding to level up and gear up two different characters at the same time, but the alt-tabbing to buff and heal actually made the game more fun for me. I know some people really dislike it and feel it's unfair, but I am splitting my drops and EXP between two characters, not getting twice as much. 

Also some of my *best* memories in the game was running around as a high-level, high-int cleric buffing newbies. I would stand in Junon for hours buffing everybody or just zoom around low level zones buffing every player I saw. That was actually a massive motivator for me to level and gear up my cleric, and it was so super rewarding helping people out. 

I will, however, agree that the buffs were perhaps a little too strong and that they were almost mandatory. 

 

I think what I (personally) would like to see is clerics staying mostly the same, but made a little weaker. I'd like to see clerics keep their full suite of buffs but maybe they could be balanced so the cleric buffs are individually weaker than specific class buffs. For example, the defensive buff the cleric gives should be a bit weaker than the defensive buff that the champion gives. If you have a champion in your party they will be the ones giving the (better) defensive buff, otherwise you get the weaker cleric one. Do the same for every class and every buff type.

This way every class *IS* able to bring one strong buff to the party, and the cleric can be there to fill in any missing buffs. They also get to keep their classic buffer role but maybe they won't feel so mandatory any more if every class gets one better buff.

 

Also, in addition to this, if you make all of the defensive buffs (cleric and individual class ones) a little weaker then the cleric will have to take on a more active role in healing, which I'd be on board with. Or just make the monsters hit a little harder

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Sorgey

[Oldsql]

52 minutes ago, Sorgey said:

I'm not really sure where the discussion is at right now (I just heard of this project, hello!), but I will say that the classic cleric is one of the biggest reasons that I loved ROSE online. I really, really enjoyed being able to dual-client with a cleric and a carry and it's the way I've always played the game. Not only is it fun and rewarding to level up and gear up two different characters at the same time, but the alt-tabbing to buff and heal actually made the game more fun for me. I know some people really dislike it and feel it's unfair, but I am splitting my drops and EXP between two characters, not getting twice as much. 

Also some of my *best* memories in the game was running around as a high-level, high-int cleric buffing newbies. I would stand in Junon for hours buffing everybody or just zoom around low level zones buffing every player I saw. That was actually a massive motivator for me to level and gear up my cleric, and it was so super rewarding helping people out. 

I will, however, agree that the buffs were perhaps a little too strong and that they were almost mandatory. 

 

I think what I (personally) would like to see is clerics staying mostly the same, but made a little weaker. I'd like to see clerics keep their full suite of buffs but maybe they could be balanced so the cleric buffs are individually weaker than specific class buffs. For example, the defensive buff the cleric gives should be a bit weaker than the defensive buff that the champion gives. If you have a champion in your party they will be the ones giving the (better) defensive buff, otherwise you get the weaker cleric one. Do the same for every class and every buff type.

This way every class *IS* able to bring one strong buff to the party, and the cleric can be there to fill in any missing buffs. They also get to keep their classic buffer role but maybe they won't feel so mandatory any more if every class gets one better buff.

 

Also, in addition to this, if you make all of the defensive buffs (cleric and individual class ones) a little weaker then the cleric will have to take on a more active role in healing, which I'd be on board with. Or just make the monsters hit a little harder

 

 

 

 

I am completely with you! I liked a lot to play 2 or more active clients at the same time. At Clan Fields it was rly nice to have an active cleric aswell... When you are slow as a fighter class it would take ages to kill something... if you geared up a high INT cleric, it would help you a lot and to fight in wars/to farm mats etc.

I know how slow a knight can run, if this will be the whole game like that, it wouldn't be as fun as it was back in the days. I love the game, but I have a family so i can't no life it anymore , I mean a new experience without a cleric would be nice too, but it depends how fun it will be in the end.

I like to min/max in the games to have the best or good results, when I am doing something. To have full buffed char I have to have all party buffers and when we are restricted to 2 clients, and nobody or less ppl playing a class so you will have never a full buffed char.

[Bobbity]

People have mentioned upping base combat stats: ms, as, def, mdef, atk and perhaps even hp and mp regen. Others have suggested allowing buffs but letting mobs hit harder. We really did get used to the artificial copium of dual/multiclienting and have good memories of it as part of the nostalgia, didn't we? Is the solution to remove all buffs and replace them with a different mechanic? Or can we do something that accommodates BOTH the drug-like ecstasy of buffing random lowbies AND removes the need for buffs?

 

We might as well transition from buffs to auras now. Auras on clerics (an even more passive playstyle than before!) or auras on summons (as has been stated a few times before), whatever works. Whatever we don't want as auras could be short-duration buffs/debuffs similar to the type of gameplay in faster non-MMO games. Maybe have the buff duration last longer the lower the level of the target is to the caster.

Come to think of it, if we have auras based on summons (with infinite duration) this would make summoning a viable subtree. Imagine 'contracting' your summoned dragon off with someone's lowbie and the game allowing it to survive in maps away from you, the dragon passively providing MP and HP regen. If the dragon takes too much damage it teleports / flies back to you and won't provide buff effects to that lowbie again until some Favorability meter is refilled or something.

Anyway, we have options here so we should spitball and brainstorm all of them.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Bobbity

[Ashura]

On 10/2/2022 at 3:56 PM, Wondertje said:

As far as we're aware their idea is that each class has a buff to give to themselves and others, so a full 8-person party of different classes will all have full buffs.

------

Will it change from cleric to artisan?

My opinion? Yes, definitely. Not so much in the intention of the artisan itself, it can still do other things. But for the solo player it 100% simply shifts the attention. With buff pots from artisan being the only somewhat reliable source for a solo player their options will now be (and I've inserted cleric to show the similarities with the old situation):

A) Make their own artisan
- Same as dual clienting cleric and having a buff slave just shifted to crafting one specific item

B) Rely on other artisans to want to do it for you
- Same as having to rely on finding a cleric to play with you

C) Rely on the economy and the possibility of other artisans selling it on the market, which isn't a guarantee
- Same as having to find a cleric willing to sell their buffs, which was never a guarantee but happened regularly

The change isn't going to change the way buffs are ultimately distributed to the players. If anything, I'm pretty sure we will see a decline in the amount of clerics that are being played. The only reason it changes is because we're now placing the buff meta on to two different things: very large parties, or artisans. And because artisans can do other things as well, no one cares because "you still have options to do other things". Meanwhile not much has changed for solo players, other than making it more cumbersome to get buffs in the first place. I think the end result is going to be fewer clerics and more afk crafting artisans that don't actually play the game other than crafting. In other news, no real change to the "omg but people look online but are afk and it ruins the MMORPG aspect" that people keep complaining about.

Definitely agree with you on this and i also stressed the damage output of clerics will be far less because they have to rely on group participation which a cleric isn't really needed unless they are full support which is a slight benefit for parties because they save on pots.

Increase increase in arti's will directly affect the games economy as well but that is a chapter for a whole new topic.

[Ashura]

5 hours ago, Bobbity said:

People have mentioned upping base combat stats: ms, as, def, mdef, atk and perhaps even hp and mp regen. Others have suggested allowing buffs but letting mobs hit harder. We really did get used to the artificial copium of dual/multiclienting and have good memories of it as part of the nostalgia, didn't we? Is the solution to remove all buffs and replace them with a different mechanic? Or can we do something that accommodates BOTH the drug-like ecstasy of buffing random lowbies AND removes the need for buffs?

 

We might as well transition from buffs to auras now. Auras on clerics (an even more passive playstyle than before!) or auras on summons (as has been stated a few times before), whatever works. Whatever we don't want as auras could be short-duration buffs/debuffs similar to the type of gameplay in faster non-MMO games. Maybe have the buff duration last longer the lower the level of the target is to the caster.

Come to think of it, if we have auras based on summons (with infinite duration) this would make summoning a viable subtree. Imagine 'contracting' your summoned dragon off with someone's lowbie and the game allowing it to survive in maps away from you, the dragon passively providing MP and HP regen. If the dragon takes too much damage it teleports / flies back to you and won't provide buff effects to that lowbie again until some Favorability meter is refilled or something.

Anyway, we have options here so we should spitball and brainstorm all of them.

Great idea Bobbity but like you mentioned us drug-like ecstasy-infused players will always run to the toughest mobs to level faster, we won't just stay in our lanes and fight mobs adequate to our levels so now we are creating a summons slave meta.

The truth is no matter how we look at it we have been spoiled for a long time with buffs be it char or pots we do not want to sacrifice and receive maximum reward for minimal effort. The entire thread stems from it and proves it as well.

The question is do we stick with what we know and improve or do start from scratch with the entire project?

 

[Bobbity]

If buffs (and even auras) are problematic, let's just do without them then. We'll have to radically change and differentiate class skill trees, though. Clerics, Scouts, Raiders and maybe even Dealers to some extent will have to have their skill trees revised for the new meta. Soldiers (except for maybe axe-champs) and Mages should be fine without buffs of any sort.

I reckon raiders should be adjusted to specialize fully on 1v1 melee combat more than they already are, even/especially in PvE. There are ways to turn them into boss killers. That could make up for their lack of consistent farming ability.

Scouts should already be okay without buffs, but their skills will need tweaking.

Dealers will need their skills added to (or modified, depending on how many skill points will be available) to also make do without buffs and rely on their DPS and crafting solutions for everything. No buff pots but maybe debuff pots could work.

Clerics should change into a very special class with unique active abilities. There have been a few suggestions in this vein on the forums, but nothing I can really sink my teeth into - either too OP and distant from the ROSE as we've known it or too weak and similar to what we've got so far. I'll try to come up with something as well and we can have a look at it.

[Ashura]

I am all for hybrid builds make the skill tree accessible for each and every character then the 3rd job system can be implemented and actually be a very viable option for the longevity of the game. I would implement job changes at lvl70 (1st) - lvl160 (2nd) - lvl250 for the 3rd job. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Ashura

[Bobbity]

Why so late with the first job change though? 

[Avatar]

4 hours ago, Bobbity said:

Why so late with the first job change though? 

Imagine being a visitor until level 70 lol. No thanks. I think absolute max for 1st job change would be 30.. and even then I’m against it. 

[Bobbity]

Right, so I've thought about this a bit. 

EDIT: This section has been moved into its own suggestion for the sake of clarity and format. It can be found here:

Cleric NEW SKILL SET (partially) and slight role change - Suggestions - ROSE Online Forum (roseonlinegame.com)

Edited November 3, 2022 by Bobbity
Basic formatting/clarity

[Thystro]

On 10/31/2022 at 2:29 AM, Bobbity said:

If buffs (and even auras) are problematic, let's just do without them then. We'll have to radically change and differentiate class skill trees, though. Clerics, Scouts, Raiders and maybe even Dealers to some extent will have to have their skill trees revised for the new meta. Soldiers (except for maybe axe-champs) and Mages should be fine without buffs of any sort.

I reckon raiders should be adjusted to specialize fully on 1v1 melee combat more than they already are, even/especially in PvE. There are ways to turn them into boss killers. That could make up for their lack of consistent farming ability.

Scouts should already be okay without buffs, but their skills will need tweaking.

Dealers will need their skills added to (or modified, depending on how many skill points will be available) to also make do without buffs and rely on their DPS and crafting solutions for everything. No buff pots but maybe debuff pots could work.

Clerics should change into a very special class with unique active abilities. There have been a few suggestions in this vein on the forums, but nothing I can really sink my teeth into - either too OP and distant from the ROSE as we've known it or too weak and similar to what we've got so far. I'll try to come up with something as well and we can have a look at it.

To be fair the buffs being separated over the 4 classes makes me wanna go for a dual client with 4 different accounts so I can get the max out of it. So I ain't sure if this is the right solution, I already know several people who do this on iROSE servers etc. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Thystro

[Bobbity]

We definitely can't go back to any type of class slaving or anything that could lead to botting. 

I'm going to keep refining the suggestion above with your input; I just feel like we can make a breakthrough if we stop looking at this the way we always have. 

 

EDIT: Is there anything in my suggestion that's obviously OP or that's too vague? 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Bobbity
Basic formatting/clarity

[Knug]

Been following the project for a few months and have really been looking forward to play classic Rose again. The nostalgia!

Just heard about this eventual Cleric change which is unfortunate for me. I've always played Rose with two characters (one Cleric) and really enjoyed it. Even though I understand some of the arguments to change it, I can't see how it will turn out for the better. Too much of the joy (for me) of playing Rose is just removed.

Fingers crossed no changes will be made

[HoneyBuns]

6 hours ago, Knug said:

Been following the project for a few months and have really been looking forward to play classic Rose again. The nostalgia!

Just heard about this eventual Cleric change which is unfortunate for me. I've always played Rose with two characters (one Cleric) and really enjoyed it. Even though I understand some of the arguments to change it, I can't see how it will turn out for the better. Too much of the joy (for me) of playing Rose is just removed.

Fingers crossed no changes will be made

You can still dual client if you want.  I've been doing it during this latest phase of alpha testing and it works fine.  You just don't NEED to do that anymore to level but it's still possible if that's your preferred playing style

[Suspeq]

Take away all the party buffs from the cleric and implement them into other classes therefore making a proper strong raid will need one of each class/2nd class/3rd class

[Bendersmom]

Please just don't make it so everyone is a buff slave.  We should all have strengths and be able to help the clan/group/team.

[Mon]

Is charm the main stats for buff like in narose?