Bobbity

But that's literally how economies work... stuff exists behind paywalls. I mean, you can play a game without economies, without currencies, without demand because supply is infinite. This is fine and is called a trash pserver. You can get any cosmetic you want, any skill you want. All you need is a good relationship with the server admin. A compromise would be to get dealer buffs and buff pots from Ferrel Guild quests, muse buffs and buff pots from the Arumics, soldier and hawker buffs and buff pots from the Righteous Crusaders and the ability to buy them for Valor from the Valor shops at the Junon Order. EDIT: With more questlines guiding players from Adventurer's Plains to Junon (free weapons etc.) and beyond, I feel handing out 2 or 3 buff potions for your own class at the starter village could do wonders in making players addicted to them. They could be part of the class assumption rewards, the Jelly King quest rewards or even the rewards from talking to the mayor in Junon.

I don't mind some basic level of crafting for necessities on other classes. Skill points and stats aren't free, after all, so you always pay for having this additional ability. A scout learning to fletch arrows will never threaten the livelihood of a well-equipped artisan working at an economy of scale. Buffs are what makes Rose stand out, so we're unlikely to get rid of them, but we've already moved in the direction of making passives more important. Many of the Unique skills focus on passives more than buffs. Remember, most buffs are party buffs - if you're not in a party, you don't need them. Since they're so tightly bound with player experience throughout the game, they have high priority with the devs, so I expect we'll eventually come to a workable compromise.

Those are delicious with goat's cheese and hummus.

In the current state of the game the following is true: artisans can craft buff potions. Dealers can't. In fact, good luck trying to craft a buff potion at level 120. Spoiler: It's not going to happen without Arua's intervention. In the spirit of giving people options AND earning things through hard work and gumption, I don't see any reason why valor quests can't reward buff potions as well AND/OR valor shops have buff potions available for sale. This would mirror what's available in the Honor shop. I've been thinking about ways to bring back targeted buffs as well as ritual skills without breaking the current meta. So far, this seems impossible. That said, there's nothing that says the meta is sacred and inviolable. We can bring back targeted buffs as long as it's not core to the current skill tree. Also, although I tend to dismiss pserver-ish things, we could have Junon Order NPCs (and those from Luxem Tower) provide some buffs. Free? I dunno. It's something to think about. At least it's not a buff fairy.

I remember that. I don't mind using that mechanic as-is, but we could modify it a bit. @Maddox What's wrong?

Dunno if I'd want to remove anything that has value. Hammers are portable and useful if no other options exist (and you're desparate).

Sounds alright. Would the cost of repairs be based on NPC material costs? If so, should Discount skills apply?

I've heard many people say that dealers should be able to repair equipment, especially items they can already craft. But crafting doesn't take place at lower levels, mainly due to the current quest meta and also due to the difficulty in crafting items less than 30 levels below you/at your own level. Basically, there are barriers. So, given that crafting doesn't take place at lower levels, can we justify repairs? Or are we going to pretend that this is totally different? Also, how would this affect the market, given that zulie that'd normally disappear into the hands of the NPCs (with zero effect otherwise except as moneysink) would now end up in the purses of dealers? Any other issues with such a skill?

Could we maybe add large amounts of crit defense to one of these shields as well (maybe the wind one) so it'll have greater utility but overall tank less normal damage than the current Fortified Mana Shield? So, dodge rate up, crit defense up. I'm thinking the fire shield could not only deal return damage but also explode, dealing AOE fire-type magic dmg on expiration. I'd rather we find a way to remove fortified mana shield eventually and replace it with separate shields branching off the elemental masteries. This way, mages have to use the basic mana shield until they achieve a mastery. Is this problematic? Sounds like we need something more interesting going on with stealth since accuracy is a deal-breaker for all DPS classes.

Well, if you want to take on the burden of this balancing act, be my guest. I don't know if it's worth your time and effort, though. I'll be keeping my eye on other things - like earlygame crafting, explosives, living off-grid, different leveling strats, the scout/dealer overlap and stuff like that. Good luck.

Clearly, this will be a nightmare to balance if we mess around with this. Let's leave Mana Shield as it is for now and just suggest some additions, then leave the heavy lifting (thinking/balancing) to the dev team. We definitely need more (and more diverse) mechanics so we can avoid problems like this in future.

We're still left with f. mana shield as THE defensive mechanism for mages. What if we moved those effects to new skills branching off the masteries? Ones that significantly impact the available mana and provide some sort of dmg reduction, avoidance, delay or general mitigation? (RELATED: Would be lovely if mages got a mobility skill so we're not stuck with the tank-tank-tank meta right up to 2025.)

Hypocrisy or whatever aside, we should explore alternatives to mana shield. I don't feel it's healthy to have one single point of failure and one meta for mages. Yes, we have multiple masteries but all those magister mages have ONE type of mana shield. Right now it's a bone of contention and appeasing everybody will cause old and even new balancing problems. We could benefit from a variety of new defensive mechanics and should start brainstorming right now.

You know what would be neat? If we could combine maps 2, 3 and 4 somehow. Imagine having 2 entrances to Goblin Caves, one with the waterfall and the other at the mineshaft. The waterfall entrance could open into a hitherto unexplored but hinted at area of the caves, maybe a higher-level area like Desert of the Dead (or even super-high level) for which dungeon instances could be used too. Kind of like Sikuku Prison leads into Sikuku Catacombs.

That puts the burden on artis again, ofc. Not that I mind, but it just changes the full support model from clerics to artisans. How about buying buffs from the Valor shops? Or specific quests from the different Unions will reward with buff pots. Junon Order w grant any buffs, Ferrel Guild will give dealer-type buffs, Arumics will give muse-type and Righteous Crusaders will give Hawker and Soldier-type buffs.

@AquilYou clearly look down on crafting if you think it's something for the weak. I see it as an amazing ability to solve almost every problem. But I guess you didn't read with a rational or open mind, or you don't see it from my perspective. Either way, thanks for the useful suggestion. Basic ammo isn't for zulie. They're to do exactly what your suggestion proposes but in a more organic way. Real ammo instead of server-faked ammo. @OwlchemistVileI don't need to discuss the positives of the proposal, they're clear. The idea OP proposes is a very good one if we - had no better natural alternatives that covered existing gaps - the dealer class had been balanced and fixed for years and needed no review -this was a pserver with a dev that didn't care. I apologize for going a bit 'extra' there. That said, your snideness and ad hominem attacks are better left for DMs. Yes, the target was clear. I won't insult you or another person on this forum; don't insult me. I've seen plenty of ideas on this forum that were at least as good as mine, usually much better - I've never had a problem with those. I see few things simpler than letting crafters craft. Please have a moderator remind you of the terms of use for this site. @Sneaux If this proposal is implemented, you will definitely have parties lasting longer in the field. They will default to the trash server-provided bullets until they have proper ammo again and there will be no gaps, no problems. People will occupy their grinding spots until they get sick of it and make plans to be there even longer than that. That's a problem in and of itself but there are positives, of course. Here's what I'm thinking, though: this proposal aside, chances are, if you've run out of even emergency supplies then your party SHOULD retire. People have wives and lives, kids and work. Overwhelmingly, that's the server's current community. I refuse to believe that an artisan can't carry enough twigs and source enough leg bones for an entire night's worth of grinding. In other words, there's nothing wrong with a party not grinding for 3 weeks without rest. What you propose is an artificial plaster for a wound that doesn't exist.

We could model ingame help along the lines of Path of Exile. With every new map or NPC encountered, the help fills in more info. With every new map or crafting recipe unlocked, more stuff about other uses and drop locations. With every new monster killed, data about its ATK, DEF, MS, aggro type, spawn site and possible drops. I know the idea of a Pokedex type of thing was mooted months back, but I see it can be much more comprehensive and monetizable.

I'm glad you asked why anyone would ever craft basic ammo as a Dealer. There's a very obvious reason that you're not seeing because like someone else here you sound like you play in a very zulie-oriented way. Let's say you're in Goblin Caves for some reason, killing goblins (and pongs and ghosts too, I suppose.) You're here to grind, loot and level. You've got space for loot and you've got some ammo. And the loot dropped can somehow be used to craft more ammo. Do you go back to town for more ammo when you're out or do you make more ammo? Now imagine being able to make ammo whenever you want. Now imagine you're in a party and they need ammo. The ability to make ammo isn't just for added dps or to sell to PvP addicts. It's an emergency skill for when you need bullets or shells, for when your xbow knight or scout needs arrows. It's to keep things going - much like a cleric's flames keep us going. It's also for people WHO DON'T GO TO TOWN. They live off of their loot, and I am offended that you people are determined to exclude this entire category of players because all you think about is zulie instead of an inclusive gameplaying experience. You've been doing this for years. If someone in your party has a problem, if you lack something, a crafter should be able to sort you out, even if it's something as simple as 'we need to keep the grind going'. But instead, you want to sidestep this. 'Run out of ammo? But this is a game, we can't have finite ammo. Let's give everyone infinite ammo.' Why are you forcing a meta? Why can't crafters do for themselves instead of having to run to NPCs for everything? People want to craft because they actually want to craft BECAUSE THAT'S WHY THEY PICKED DEALER. If you just want to hit from range, hawker is lovely for this; you can become a scout and kite for years. There's already so little crafting going on earlygame and you want to make the situation worse. Oh, now we're removing the weight too? If we remove the weight, we might as well do whatever we want. Up the damage, add an on-hit stun, slow and blind, aoe on auto-attack... just add some ideas here since it's a free-for-all now. It'll make the mobile game a lot easier, no need to skill anything. EDIT: This has devolved into a rant, clearly. I want to point out that this is a bone of contention for me for the past 8 years or so because the Dealer class needs to be sorted out in creative and effective ways but all that's given so far are sops. There are obvious remedies that don't involve weird pserver-ish hacks and actually improve gameplay at both earlygame and lategame (more interesting, tactical etc.) but all I see is stuff like 'infinite ammo, 0 weight ammo' and the like. I'll discuss it via DMs instead of cluttering up this particular thread with my aggro. Aside, there's actually no reason there can't be a separate ammo tab. Right now, it feels like a cop-out but it might be the best solution eventually. EDIT the 2nd: What are you guys gonna do when we end up on planets with no NPC shops? No friendly NPCs? Teleticket back to Junon? We don't have those anymore, AFAIK.

I've got a question for you players who seemingly are solely focused on zulie: "Do you craft before level 40? What about before level 70?" The question is on-topic.

@choppmanYour post makes me wonder if the game doesn't need more quests so comprehensive knowledge of the game is gained organically. People are asking for wikis and I don't know how I feel about that. I'd prefer that they actually play the game, explore, and find what they need to know thanks to spending time ingame. So, what you want is to, whenever you find loot, to already know whether to keep and store it, vend it or sell back to the NPCs. For those who want convenience this definitely would be a nice feature - sounds like something for premium accounts, like Dota+. Being able to ping NPCs, friends and clannies, look up materials and recipes, gameplay guides, walkthroughs, stuff like that. For cheapskates, we'll have to learn things the hard way. You're right that some of the NPC dialogue is very lacking in many ways. I understand that's already being looked at, though. PAT = Personal Automated Transport (cart and Castle Gear mech parts) Valor shops = the shops in front of the Junon Order faction in Junon Polis. They sell materials, skills, weapons, armor and valuable consumables for a currency called Valor (check your character screen for Zulie, Honor and Valor by pressing Alt-C.) Valor is gained by doing quests for the different Union factions (Arumic Order, Junon Order, Righteous Crusaders, Ferrel Guild. Check the other guides for the locations of these factions in Junon and other cities.)

Sorry if it came off like a rant. It feels like you aren't a dealer because you don't seem to think like one. It's not about the money per se, it's the entire Dealer experience. In fact, it's the entire ROSE experience. So, TL;DR: you're taking away the need to craft instead of solving the problem by letting crafters craft. There's a significant LACK OF CRAFTING HAPPENING WITH THE SO-CALLED CRAFTER CLASS. Let them CRAFT. Modify the drops slightly, add 2-3 recipes in the crafting chain. Problem solved. No need for some stupid pserver hack like infinite free mediocre ammo. People should satisfy their lack of ammo by... crafting ammo. In CRATES. 999 CRATES. FROM LOOT. Holy crap, what an idea. Imagine SOLVING YOUR RESOURCE PROBLEMS THROUGH THE MIRACLE OF SCIENCE.

You just quoted my whole post just to ignore it. Why? I have already stated why your idea is bad. Your post says nothing new and offers no meaningful solutions acceptable to Dealers or that is sustainable over the long term. This is not a pserver. You can't just do stupid stuff willy-nilly and ignore the consequences. What is your answer to what I proposed?

No. I oppose this suggestion completely in its current form. How do I shot web, bro? Muses wield the power of a god. That's what mana is, the metaphysical 'weight', force, presence, gravity, importance and power of a being, and we are gifted with Arua's mana. Those who follow the muse path get to wield it in even more focused and versatile ways. I don't have a huge problem allowing hawkers to learn how to fletch arrows. If a level 10 dealer can do it with just a leg bone and some wood it shouldn't be beyond a hawker's capabilities to learn it eventually. I'd support it as a PvM valor skill, something you'd work towards earning and learning, not a basic skill. Dealers need to eat too. In the same way that we don't want ALL the buffs on clerics, we don't need to have literally ALL crafting on dealers. If a spear-champ wants to learn how to craft spears, who am I to stop her? Sure, she can't equip a crafting hammer so things won't ever be easy, but don't let your dreams be memes, guys. Now onto the meat and potatoes of the post. I am once again asking for your financial support you to consider the following: Economics is all about demand, supply, excess and deprivation, and most importantly, opportunity cost Dealers are the economics-oriented class if any ammo exists in a permanently free state such that you don't even need to buy it more than once you are depriving dealers of part of their economy if bone arrows can be crafted from animal leg bones and any spare bit of wood, surely basic ammo can be crafted from a more available recipe Right now, gunpowder packets x25 + iron x5 through Alchemy can give you iron bullets. That's the lowest tier of crafted ammo available. Launcher enjoyers have to wait until they get to tiar-dropping maps before they get their turn (35-40 levels later?) In my experience, iron isn't as readily available as animal bone legs. It doesn't drop in large volume, nor is it reliably procced as a disassembly product. Yet it's used in NPC gear and a number of crafted items (even face items). Clearly, it'd be a balance issue to make iron drop more readily. Why can't we just have bean bullets and normal bullets made from varying quantities of free-dropping looted metals? Rusted iron, tin, bronze, copper etc. Or just some tier of bullets lower than iron bullets, essentially. Here's the current layout: Bean bullets: quality 5, dmg +3 Bullets: quality 10, dmg +5 Iron bullets: quality 15, dmg +9 To paraphrase a great Ben Stiller movie, if you can make an air gun from rusted iron and tin you can make bullets from rusted iron and tin. Just the decision that a dealer has to make whether to sell looted mats vs store them is a huge part of why people become dealers (or should I say ARE Dealers.) The option to use these mats for enhancing their attack damage vs other options only adds to that decision, that feeling. It's the feeling of living between the extremes of a skint flat-broke scrub in mismatched patchwork looted armor and being the CEO of a major guild, commanding an army of lethal mechs, knowing you could become or go back to either based on your increasing knowledge and hard work. In other words, there has to be the risk of poverty and the glowing prize of wealth for dealers to be dealers. When you take away the most basic poverty one can experience, you're taking away an entire layer of decision-making from what it means to be a Dealer. You're also forcing a meta that should not be forced. I might've rambled there, so if you need clarity, let me know and I'll try to do it better.

I took some tiar and gunpowder packets, set it to craft 30 boxes and walked away. I came back to 30 boxes of bomber shells in my consumables tab. Would I want crafting to be different? Sure, I'd like a workbench and maybe a forge to call my very own, maybe a manufactory for big stuff like building ships and buses and whatnot. I don't know whether I'd still feel like an artisan if I produce 1000 boxes of ammo per second without the help of a device. EDIT: Are you simply unaware that we have a certain level of batch crafting? That feature is clearly underadvertised.

It'd be awkward to move it since it uses relatively basic mats