ANOTHER CLERIC POLL - Are Cleric changes 'make or break' for you?

[il]

I think one of the understated things that makes this conversation difficult is that each person is referencing/recalling different versions of the game, so many times peoples arguments are completely moot from the outset because either side may not be on even ground. That being said, I still think it's a worthwhile poll and discussion because it may be the difference between people playing and not playing evidenced by some of the poll results.

While I'm still on the fence about the Cleric changes, it occurred to me after reading some of these thread responses, in the event that the devs decide changes MUST happen, what if some kind of balance were struck where Cleric buffs were changed as follows:

 

- Clerics can self-buff at 100% effect.

- Cleric can buff others at 50% effect.

--

Examples:

- ATK Buff -

Self: +800 AP

Others: +400 AP

- A-Spd Buff -

Self: +500 ASPD

Others: +250 ASPD

- Move-Spd Buff -

Self: +1200 MSPD

Others: +600 MSPD

 

etc..

--

Note: All values are just examples to communicate the idea, I'm aware that stats (such as int) were a factor in determining buff values, so you would just divide the final buff value by 2 when casting on others in the scenario above.

I haven't thought through all of the consequences of this yet, particularly the PVP implications of things like movespeed etc, but wanted to throw out the idea anyway (no idea if its already been suggested or not).

I guess the main idea of doing something like this would be to:

1. reduce overall dependence on buffs

2. have buffs be less pivotal, but still optimal (still wanted for groups etc)

3. allow soloing as a cleric to still be viable, (battle clerics could remain a thing)

4. game releases faster and more stable due to the Cleric re-work not taking away as much dev time

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by il

[Ed]

9 hours ago, il said:

- Clerics can self-buff at 100% effect.

- Cleric can buff others at 50% effect.

 still make players buff dependent cause a little something is always better than nothing. but i think it makes sense if cleric can full basic buff itself but can only share a party buff on full or half effect. cleric should just focus on defensive buffs not on offensive? maybe?

Edited July 17, 2022 by Ed

[Wondertje]

23 minutes ago, Ed said:

still make players buff dependent cause a little something is always better than nothing

That's like saying that the existence of the raider class makes people dependent on it because a bit more dodge/speed is better than none, so everyone will need it.

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Limiting the cleric buffs within the scope of what they were before is much, much better than overhauling them completely and starting to remove / redistribute things. Classes are meant to have differences, people are meant to be able to choose a support class, a PvM/Farm class, a PvP class, etc. I do not for the life of me understand the argument and mindset that every player, regardless of their character choice, needs to be equally good at everything. I've not once come across an MMO, that uses classes, where every class is equally viable in all situations, MMOs that don't use classes but instead has character building is a completely different story. Having classes with clear and strong diversity encourages multiplayer and group settings, which seems to be the goal here. Ironically, I think the current proposed changes are going to have quite the opposite effect on the player base.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Wondertje

[Ashura]

Clerics have always been the support classes and the buffs enhances itself and the other classes abilities, players who have learned how to optimize the class are being punished, yet majority of the players who played other classes also benefited from this. (let me call it exploit)

Leveling a cleric on its own is tedious with and without buffs we do not really get the benefits of all the skills, skill casting slows time it takes to deal constant damage and base weapon AP is too low to make a real difference in battle we do not have AoE's for CC and if we are swarmed chances are highly likely we wont see tomorrow morning.

Either way I will main a cleric although i cant really say main as i like to play all classes and enjoy the challenges ahead.

 

 

 

[il]

5 hours ago, Ed said:

 still make players buff dependent cause a little something is always better than nothing.

Yeah that's why I phrased it.. 'reduce overall dependence on buffs'.

 

5 hours ago, Wondertje said:

That's like saying that the existence of the raider class makes people dependent on it because a bit more dodge/speed is better than none, so everyone will need it.

Yeah exactly. There are degrees of what people are willing to do to be optimal, most people won't worry about getting every buff available from each class before grinding.

 

5 hours ago, Wondertje said:

I do not for the life of me understand the argument and mindset that every player, regardless of their character choice, needs to be equally good at everything.

... Having classes with clear and strong diversity encourages multiplayer and group settings.

 

I think the ideal situation would be to 'balance' a class without 'watering down' it's identity. When class/player identity goes through degradation, I think it's a reasonable assumption that, in the long term especially, you affect the retainability of players and the overall feel/addicting capacity of the game.

I'd go out on a limb and say.. most players love the feeling that they are contributing something that not every player can offer, which increases class/player identity and delivers a small degree of exclusivity, especially in group settings.

 

3 hours ago, Ashura said:

we do not have AoE's for CC.

Would be cool to see something like this for Cleric one day

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by il

[LordAlbion]

Balancing classes is a myth. There will always be people b**ching about this class or that class being OP no matter what the devs do. ROSE was awesome when it first came out and did not have pvp. It's only after they implemented pvp and tried to balance classes accordingly that it got really messed up. I just want them to release the game so we can play. THEN worry about fine tuning, if necessary.

[Ed]

so characters here have a buff of their own? adding them to one another's buff will complete a full basic+party buff?

so, if instead removing the buffs from cleric, why not just rescale it on a lower level? something between weak to regular buff? also make weak buff scroll free of stamina so everyone that don't want have a cleric can have access for missing buffs?

 

[TheShredr]

Why shouldnt we completely remove buffs being sharable? Classes having their own buffs (maybe even very short 'power' improvements) forces some kind of build adjustment and it improves their class strenghts. 

Because with this redistributing I still see people build certain classes with full charm/int build just for sharing buffs. And balancing might be easier when there are no sharable buffs.

I do like it when we could make changes like this and complement the characters strenghts this way, make every single char even more unique. Since imo giving every char parts of the full buffs doesnt change that much apart from forcing people to party and being more dependent on others. Partying should just increase efficiency and this should be enough reason to party.

So my suggestion is, remove sharable buffs and give every class selfbuffs that complement their strenghts (this might make balancing easier for lategame by buffing/nerfing selfbuffs) and rethink what unique role cleric should be. Maybe just healer is enough, with possible builds for healer/offspec for damage.

This might remove the always need for buffs hunger and make soloplay completely viable! Dual client is no problem, since you just play 2 chars you like. Even limiting to solo client is then a possibility like how many other mmo's work.

Edited July 18, 2022 by TheShredr

[Ashura]

11 hours ago, TheShredr said:

Why shouldnt we completely remove buffs being sharable? Classes having their own buffs (maybe even very short 'power' improvements) forces some kind of build adjustment and it improves their class strenghts. 

Because with this redistributing I still see people build certain classes with full charm/int build just for sharing buffs. And balancing might be easier when there are no sharable buffs.

I do like it when we could make changes like this and complement the characters strenghts this way, make every single char even more unique. Since imo giving every char parts of the full buffs doesnt change that much apart from forcing people to party and being more dependent on others. Partying should just increase efficiency and this should be enough reason to party.

So my suggestion is, remove sharable buffs and give every class selfbuffs that complement their strenghts (this might make balancing easier for lategame by buffing/nerfing selfbuffs) and rethink what unique role cleric should be. Maybe just healer is enough, with possible builds for healer/offspec for damage.

This might remove the always need for buffs hunger and make soloplay completely viable! Dual client is no problem, since you just play 2 chars you like. Even limiting to solo client is then a possibility like how many other mmo's work.

The hardest part about all of this is that there are buff potions available in naRose which if not altered as well that will make the need for clerics null and void, only solution regarding self buffs is if you diversify the buffs.

i.e give clerics atk power up buffs, arti's atk spd, scouts crit rate, champs m-spd, knights enhanced damage, raiders dodge rate that way each class will be beneficial to the party.

I intentionally excluded bourgs because of stockpile skill and mage has hp and mp up.

This is just my own thought process of trying to balance it out. 

[Bobbity]

Although clerics-in-training can level by themselves tolerably well enough, their exp gain isn't as much as other classes - and I'm okay with that. Class differentiation is real enough for our purposes. I don't mind them being at the bottom of the totem pole, as it were. Clerics shine late-game, as they should, and guilds should be fighting over a decent cleric with good timing, decent mana management, strong heals and mental fortitude (and maybe truly unique skills?) 

What do you guys really want though? Do you want all classes to level at the same speed? Have the same strengths and weaknesses? Or do you just want clerics to "not suck"? Because clerics don't suck. Leveling a cleric might feel like a sub-optimum experience. You likely think, "well, this is where buffs come in, duh." No. This is where MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE comes in. Play with friends. Help level the cleric in a party. If you want, clerics could gain bonus exp in parties through a hidden skill or the attribute they add the most (CHA? INT? SEN? I dunno these days.)

 

To understand what the cleric should do, you should look at the other classes as well. Classes should need each other to complete a major goal but not to level. I've said this part before but maybe I should've been more clear.

- Artisans right now don't level well, even with good gear. I'm okay with that MOSTLY. There are ways to make their leveling path more interesting, unique and profitable and I'll talk about that in a post I'll likely link here when I edit this one.

- Katars and hawkers tend to have a variable leveling experience, depending on if they're geared or not. At the same time this can be more interesting and fulfilling. See the above for a post I'll link on this topic. 

- With the hp regen displays and calcs more reliable, leveling soldiers typically is stable and relaxing unless you have no idea what you're doing. 

 

Guys, you really don't need dual client + buffslaves. You really don't. What you need is for the game to be interesting and engaging. You need the grind itself (the major component of the game) to be interesting, or at least not super-boring. You need your character to be strong enough and fast enough to get a decent amount of exp a day. You also want your character to be able to risk a higher exp gain without being instantly squished like a tomato dropped from Burj Khalifa.

How is this achieved? 

- Additional mechanics (with high visibility) that force a choice on the player (with all routes of the choice being rewarding). We can't have a rigid metagame, a rigid playstyle that an actual bot could play (and play better than us!) I've seen players turn themselves into machines, performing the same action LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF TIMES. This is not an exaggeration. LITERALLY. THOUSANDS. Hundreds of thousands.

For example, there could be a choice between nuker  (strong burst damage spells with relatively low cooldowns), right-click DPS hitter (high attack damage, high attack speed, high attack accuracy),  summoner (either spawning minions on an ad hoc basis or focusing on leveling one specific minion over time, having them grow their abilities with you as you level) or pure full-support (no attack, only heal and... buff? Whatever.) Or a warlock debuffs and curses type. Whatever it is, it's diversity.

 

 - Endgame goals for every class that are also diverse and not part of a fixed 'best practices' meta. The dev team is all about choice and diversity, so no worries. 

 

- Other stuff

 

Honestly, there's a lot more involved here than a simple of to buff or not to buff. When we look at the big picture, buffs are a small component of the entire experience, not a gamebreaker.

 

Anyway, I know I've said some stuff badly again because I wrote this while falling asleep. I hope to come back to this later.

 

  

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Bobbity
Fell asleep while typing

[Mizore]

At this point i've been gaming for over 20 years, and i gotta say that if your players are running more than one instance of your game for anything other than for fun. That's typically endemic of a larger problem. Even if you don't agree that the buff clerics used were OP. The fact that many players would/are willing to go out of their way to run two copies of the game at once when (in a MMO in a healthy state)  that shouldn't even cross their mind over just finding more players should be concerning. MMO stands for 'massively multiplayer online' after all, not 'multiple monitor online'. So it stands to reason that if the lack of a thriving player base causes those remaining to play a second class at the same time to continue playing enjoyably, you have a pretty significant issue in terms of that class's effect on core gameplay. Whether or not taking that classes buffs and splitting them across the games classes is the solution is definitely up in the air. That there is a problem is not.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Mizore
fixed typos

[Ashura]

On 7/19/2022 at 1:50 AM, Mizore said:

At this point i've been gaming for over 20 years, and i gotta say that if your players are running more than one instance of your game for anything other than for fun. That's typically endemic of a larger problem. Even if you don't agree that the buff clerics used were OP. The fact that many players would/are willing to go out of their way to run two copies of the game at once when (in a MMO in a healthy state)  that shouldn't even cross their mind over just finding more players should be concerning. MMO stands for 'massively multiplayer online' after all, not 'multiple monitor online'. So it stands to reason that if the lack of a thriving player base causes those remaining to play a second class at the same time to continue playing enjoyably, you have a pretty significant issue in terms of that class's effect on core gameplay. Whether or not taking that classes buffs and splitting them across the games classes is the solution is definitely up in the air. That there is a problem is not.

Agree with what you said Mizore. I only found out on a p/server that you can multi-client and it never bothered me one bit soloing. I played on another server all alone on it, it was totally deserted but i enjoyed exploring the game even more so because i had to rely on myself to progress (the drops were nice though) didnt even cared that i had a lot of zulie to burn and no one was on or trade with. It made me appreciate Rose so much more for all its splender and flaws alike.

[namcost]

I posted my class overhaul idea into the suggestion forums. IF we were to change things, I think that would be the way to start. It breaks down second tier jobs into FOUR subsets instead of two, which would help with the idea of clerics being useless. They would still have buffs, but there would be another buff class called BARD in the "hawker/thief" category which would have a more AOE based modifiers where you have to "stay close" as apposed to direct cast buffs that last for X time. There is so much the developers could do to overhaul the game without breaking it.... I trust that they will choose what THEY want to do, and we have to hope for the bets.

[MyHeadMovies]

IMO.

The only change to Clerics should be to reduce the effectiveness of the buffs, but not remove the buffs entirely.

Clerics having access to all buffs is the unique reasoning to choosing cleric. They should be able to dig deep into the library of spells and buff everyone with everything. 
However, all of those same buffs should still be split up among the other classes and they should be more potent. This reasoning is for those choosing to Solo level instead of group play.

We can’t punish those who do not want to level in groups, which is now a requirement if you want buffs/advantage that others are getting. 
 

I think if you really want to improve Clerics, give them additional skills to choose from that’ll make them more balanced in PvP/PvE content. Options options options. That’s what makes the game so special. You are effectively removing a LOT of options by nerfing clerics in this way. Sure they are more geared to solo play now, but why not have both? Not everyone wants to use a cleric for leveling. I believe taking away a core part of what made Rose so fun in the past will cause quite a few to not return to the game. 
I am not one of those, I will play regardless. But nostalgia is just as much in play here as wanting a fun game. 

[Vile]

Alpha and Beta are designed to test changes. If you're adverse to that on principle, no one can change your mind. If you're willing to test it and feel it out yourself before making a conclusion, you're a sane, stable and sensible person. 

The way I see it, they need to push these changes to beta sooner than later, purely for the testing of major overhauls, before going into the balancing and honing that usually takes place in Beta. 

Open the flood gates. Test it all, Test everything. Submit it to the hammer of scrutiny and lets truth ring free. 

[Neuk]

To me, the changes are a major bummer. All there is to it. 

[Vaztuz]

    HoneyBuns and I talked about this a few days ago where I said that I don't like the idea that CHA affects buffs. With this said, I'm okay with Clerics still being buff slaves as long as they don't exceed the class specific buffs. Soldier class buffs should give higher ATK/DEF/MAXHP buffs to the party compared to when clerics give the buffs and so on. If cleric gives full buffs, make the non-class specific buffs at the same level with potion buffs. Now if CHA still affects buffs, make it so that only the class specific buffs would be affected.

   Buff clerics are okay, they help new member, low level members of clans to level faster. But, it seems like it's stuck in a 'default build'. One reason I also like the idea of a battle cleric, but the battle cleric builds i saw seems like it's still dependent on the full buffs that clerics has.

[RoseOnPlayer]

I would like Cleric to be changed BUT WITH MORE BUFFS and NOT LESS BUFFS (not in any poll options). Cleric buffs can be changed without the need to remove them. They just need to be adjusted and these buff skills should be interactive and strategic instead of just passive buffing.

[RoseOnPlayer]

On 9/11/2022 at 3:15 PM, Vaztuz said:

    HoneyBuns and I talked about this a few days ago where I said that I don't like the idea that CHA affects buffs. With this said, I'm okay with Clerics still being buff slaves as long as they don't exceed the class specific buffs. Soldier class buffs should give higher ATK/DEF/MAXHP buffs to the party compared to when clerics give the buffs and so on. If cleric gives full buffs, make the non-class specific buffs at the same level with potion buffs. Now if CHA still affects buffs, make it so that only the class specific buffs would be affected.

   Buff clerics are okay, they help new member, low level members of clans to level faster. But, it seems like it's stuck in a 'default build'. One reason I also like the idea of a battle cleric, but the battle cleric builds i saw seems like it's still dependent on the full buffs that clerics has.

You are okay with Clerics as buff slaves but the devs are avoiding that. And I too do NOT WANT Clerics as buff slaves.

[Avatar]

46 minutes ago, RoseOnPlayer said:

I would like Cleric to be changed BUT WITH MORE BUFFS and NOT LESS BUFFS (not in any poll options). Cleric buffs can be changed without the need to remove them. They just need to be adjusted and these buff skills should be interactive and strategic instead of just passive buffing.

I do like this idea, too. 

@Heatfistmade some stellar suggestions that just blows my mind and I hope the Devs take the time to read and try to implement some of their suggestions.