ANOTHER CLERIC POLL - Are Cleric changes 'make or break' for you?

[il]

After having looked at a few posts and polls, there's no doubt Clerics are one of the most played and important classes for returning players, both for nostalgia and gameplay reasons.

I was curious how 'make or break' the proposed Cleric changes are for the community. I think that for a lot of people (including myself) Cleric was one of the main reasons they play ROSE, not just to main it, but for dual-clienting and the inherent incentive to befriend players and form groups/clans.

I think a substantial amount of in-game interactions and subsequent friendships/networks were built initially off of stuff like.. asking a Cleric for buffs or joining a group with a Cleric that had wallop charm and always had bonfire down etc.. I found this quite unique to ROSE after all these years of MMO's, I think it gave a lot of grass-roots and addicting staying power to the game.

I think I'm in the 'I will give Cleric changes a chance' category!

Let us know what you think! 

Edited July 9, 2022 by il

[Loerslang]

I'm also in the category of 'I will give the Cleric changes a chance' ! 
But if i don't like them, i won't quit playing Rose.. Cleric is a vital part of the game so it will just be 'getting used' to the new cleric system. 
When you are used to it, it will all be fine. And i am sure the Devs will also do a lot of fine-tuning after the release. There will be lots of feedback from the community!

 

[President]

I say keep clerics how they are. Only takes a good cleric to play in DGs or PVP if not master cleric besides the buffing of course cleric will remain weak. i learned that the hard just playing always dying until i learned fully on how to play cleric. if dont learn the correct to play including dgs and pvp they only good for buffing  

[DanielFitzi]

Firstly thanks for the poll. 

So for some context. I am an Australian player and as such when playing on "smaller" MMO's / ones with OCE Server hosting it is often hard to get regular groups. As such I often find myself playing solo quite a alot, Although I am hoping for a lot of group play in ROSE.  As such you would think that I am apposed to Cleric changes, however this couldnt be further from the truth.

 1. dual boxing / dual client for playing a game is wrong- I could write paragraphs on how not needed this is, how it breaks the game, the community the feel. How it pressures people into do it etc. But for now il leave it at that.

2. Cleric buffs in their old state trivialise the content. you kill faster, level quicker and move through zones faster. again, the amount wrong here for the health and long life of  game is an essay alone. 

3. there is economy issues, having players in higher zones too fast, or dual box players / cleric buffed higher up the game VS those that dont.

I am sure everyone has feelings on this, and everyone thinks they are right. At the end of the day I am looking forward to playing a new version of a cleric and hope I can still support a team. I am open to all changes within the game as the devs have showed they are gamers, and love the game themselves. 

 

My only ask is that dual boxing goes the way of the dinosaurs. 

[Wondertje]

I think most people would give it a try, but I'd rather see them not changed if I would choose. I personally think that the arguments for changing it are nonsense and they make little sense. In a way they're based on an incorrect assumption to begin with (classes aren't balanced so we need to change them + limit dual clienting or no one will play our game and engage with others). Like I said, it's not going to stop me from at least trying to play, but it will definitely not be a change I want to see. Even if it's still playable, people who main cleric won't have near the good experiencec they had before. They claim this change will increase the chance of maining cleric and that it'll be better, but I doubt it. Maining cleric the way it was before took an immense focus and skill because it was a challenge, especially early at server release (like with all classes). Now that challenge is gone and it'll be the same as everything else. Instead of having different classes do different things, they're more bland, like a wet blanket on top the whole "balanced".

Also, this turned into quite a rant. My vote is between "I will play regardless but don't change" and "I'll play but if it's dumb I'll play differently/quite". However quitting isn't an option for me so only for that will I go with first option.

[il]

52 minutes ago, Loerslang said:

"Cleric is a vital part of the game"

Yeah 100% agree, I think they are the most pivotal class in the game without the proposed changes

42 minutes ago, DanielFitzi said:

"thanks for the poll". 

"dual boxing / dual client for playing a game is wrong"

"Cleric buffs in their old state trivialise the content."

yessirrr

 I like the decision that the devs have made with limiting it to only two clients personally. It allows people to set up a shop on the side without RMT and secondarily it probably satisfies the most people.

I wouldn't say that old Cleric buffs trivialized content overall, I just remember them making grinding WAY more fun, and with speed buff you could make it worth it to grind more obscure areas that are less clumped / populated with mobs. Obviously this is subjective, but I was way more motivated to level other classes because of buffs tbh.

41 minutes ago, Wondertje said:

"Instead of having different classes do different things, they're more bland, like a wet blanket on top the whole "balanced"."

Yeah I'm afraid of this happening too. I'm a big proponent of pvp balance specifically, but I've seen this in many other games. Changes are slowly made over time that begin to homogenize classes and reduce distinctions between classes and playstyles with the 'ideal of balance'. Many times it ends up destroying the original feel & identity of the class and tramples on the whole reason the player chose that class to begin with.

I think it's tough for any dev team to get this right though.. its impossible to please us all.

Edited July 9, 2022 by il

[skeptic]

I think it's good the game will go through a beta with the cleric changes. For now all changes have been just verbal but actually experiencing the changes first hand may sway some opinions. That said, I've always been a proponent of the community aspect of the game and having each class have certain buffs supports that as in order to have the full array of buffs you will need a party of at least each class. This brings players together which I always enjoyed with ROSE online. If a cleric is the sole buffer then players may resort to having a second account with a cleric and buffing themselves rather than begging for buffs. In my opinion this makes sense on servers with less players but for the relaunch of naROSE I am expecting multiple thousands of players enjoying the game together with many opportunities to party and share buffs around. In conclusion: let's try it first before saying the change is wrong.

[LordAlbion]

22 hours ago, DanielFitzi said:

My only ask is that dual boxing goes the way of the dinosaurs. 

This seems to be a point of contention. Let's see how the GM's go about adressing everyone's concerns.

[Jova1106]

Clerics can still be strong, and useful for healing and defensive buffs. Their offensive buffs were absolutely a problem

23 hours ago, Wondertje said:

I think most people would give it a try, but I'd rather see them not changed if I would choose. I personally think that the arguments for changing it are nonsense and they make little sense. In a way they're based on an incorrect assumption to begin with (classes aren't balanced so we need to change them + limit dual clienting or no one will play our game and engage with others). Like I said, it's not going to stop me from at least trying to play, but it will definitely not be a change I want to see. Even if it's still playable, people who main cleric won't have near the good experiencec they had before. They claim this change will increase the chance of maining cleric and that it'll be better, but I doubt it. Maining cleric the way it was before took an immense focus and skill because it was a challenge, especially early at server release (like with all classes). Now that challenge is gone and it'll be the same as everything else. Instead of having different classes do different things, they're more bland, like a wet blanket on top the whole "balanced".

Also, this turned into quite a rant. My vote is between "I will play regardless but don't change" and "I'll play but if it's dumb I'll play differently/quite". However quitting isn't an option for me so only for that will I go with first option.

 

Quote

based on an incorrect assumption to begin with (classes aren't balanced so we need to change them

This isn't an "incorrect assumption". Classes weren't balanced well, especially near the end, and ESPECIALLY most cleric buffs. People who are defending the cleric buffs *probably* played cleric, and used the buffs to their advantage. I didn't have a cleric. It was hard to find clerics. I often saw other people with buffs, and if they were cleric buffs, they shredded things, while I had to fight at normal speed, which makes solo leveling take forever. On the off chance that I DID get buffed, everything was great until the buffs wore off, then I didn't feel like grinding at such a slow speed again, or leaving just to get those OP buffs. The fact that cleric buffs were THAT overpowered actually encouraged people to run multiple clients, just to have buffs all the time. Unfortunately, cleric buffs make things inherently unbalanced, unless everyone has access to them. People who main cleric should be playing cleric to support their party. Not just to buff people. If people like cleric ONLY for the buffs, then that class is anything BUT balanced, because those buffs were so much more overpowered than the rest of the spells, that nobody cares about those things, as long as the buffs aren't nerfed, right? That's a bad class design. Clerics could use more ways to heal effectively, and maybe give people some kind of lifesteal buff, along with some max armor/health, as well as things like hp/mana regen.

The other classes had issues as well, but I'm sure the devs are working on balancing everything. I'll be providing a lot of feedback when I get the chance to play.

 

Quote

Now that challenge is gone and it'll be the same as everything else. Instead of having different classes do different things, they're more bland, like a wet blanket on top the whole "balanced".

This is ridiculous. The challenge won't be "gone". If anything, it will be more challenging, because clerics will have to actually do something useful, other than throw out buffs and go afk for the duration. Clerics are support. There are no other classes in the game that support anything, other than themselves.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Jova1106

[Wondertje]

Maybe you saw different people. Myself and the people I played with, and everyone I saw, would disagree with your assessment of the situation.

[il]

On 7/9/2022 at 6:50 PM, skeptic said:

For now all changes have been just verbal but actually experiencing the changes first hand may sway some opinions.

 

Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing/trying the new Cleric playstyle and comparing it. Whenever you venture to change something so fundamental to a class/game, its naturally met with skepticism, (as it should I think). Hopefully enough people get to test these changes during beta so we have a good sample size for how people feel about it.

 

5 hours ago, Jova1106 said:

People who are defending the cleric buffs *probably* played cleric, and used the buffs to their advantage.

 

I think 90%+ of people just enjoyed the rush of getting buffs from a Cleric and it making leveling faster and more enjoyable, sometimes with the comradery of a new Cleric friend. Then you'd slowly build a list of Clerics/Muses that you could hit up to group with or just for buffs.

I suppose one argument against the Cleric changes would be.. If you wanted to solo grind optimally, rather than finding one Cleric for buffs, you'd have to constantly coordinate with 3 other people on different classes (assuming all buffs were spread evenly through the other jobs), and then it's much more annoying to be optimal IF you want to solo grind (which most people want to do frequently).

If buffs are spread out through other classes, it DOES incentivize more group play, which on paper is great.. but at the cost of frustration.. if your group isn't pulling their weight, and at the cost of feeling like you NEED to group, even though you might rather solo.

 

5 hours ago, Jova1106 said:

"Unfortunately, cleric buffs make things inherently unbalanced, unless everyone has access to them."

 

I think Clerics were ubiquitous enough in popularity (at least when I played), that everyone DID have access to them if they put in the effort to make friends or just grind one up either in dual client or separate account/computer.

I'm not sure how the culture of the game changed towards the end, but generally people just had to ask one of the many Clerics running around, which incentivizes interaction and cultivates a less toxic playerbase, just by the mere fact that you have to be somewhat friendly to get what you want.

 

5 hours ago, Jova1106 said:

"maybe give people some kind of lifesteal buff"

 

Cool idea

 

5 hours ago, Jova1106 said:

"clerics will have to actually do something useful, other than throw out buffs and go afk for the duration. Clerics are support. There are no other classes in the game that support anything, other than themselves."

 

Yeah if the changes do stick, I hope Cleric does become more challenging in general. However I do remember skills like 'Purify' that dispelled debuffs from friends and 'Soul Doubt' which silenced enemies, which were engaging already, it's just that there weren't enough mob affects/spells in PVE (at least early game) to make them feel worth it. But in PVP they were great.

--

An aside:

I have no idea if this is possible in the game engine, but giving Clerics more crowd control abilities that affect the battlefield for PVE and PVP would make them much more active and still sought after for groups.

For example, in a scenario where Cleric changes included having less buffs but they had access to an AOE root, groups would still want them because they could enable much bigger pulls of mobs at once for more efficient grinding. Again, this might be completely infeasible for the current engine, but there still seems to be plenty of room for some creativity along these lines.

Edited July 11, 2022 by il

[Krupis]

I love Rose and all but for me personally is frustrating that you always need to have a buffer alt as a secondary character to help you progress through the game. I think that in Rose, we rely on buffs way too much since you are basically useless without buffs.. 

I much prefer MMORPG's where you simply select your character and roll with it without needing to rely on other classes to be actually useful ( Of course it helps when you have other buffs but that shouldnt render you useless if you dont have them). 

People nowadays just want to rush to the endgame instead of actually enjoying the journey while leveling up, upgrading gear, partying up with nearby players, defeating kings and etc...

 

I wish this game would not allow multiclienting and any attempt to do so would be strictly dealt with. Multiclienting is for lazy people.

 

To sum this up:

I think the new cleric changes have potential to make this a better experience

Edited July 11, 2022 by Krupis

[Loerslang]

25 minutes ago, Krupis said:

I love Rose and all but for me personally is frustrating that you always need to have a buffer alt as a secondary character to help you progress through the game. I think that in Rose, we rely on buffs way too much since you are basically useless without buffs.. 

I much prefer MMORPG's where you simply select your character and roll with it without needing to rely on other classes to be actually useful ( Of course it helps when you have other buffs but that shouldnt render you useless if you dont have them). 

People nowadays just want to rush to the endgame instead of actually enjoying the journey while leveling up, upgrading gear, partying up with nearby players, defeating kings and etc...

 

I wish this game would not allow multiclienting and any attempt to do so would be strictly dealt with. Multiclienting is for lazy people.

 

To sum this up:

I think the new cleric changes have potential to make this a better experience

Wouldn’t this take away the whole purpose of the support Cleric? That would mean the Muse job’s only choice would be a Mage. A support Cleric can’t level up all that easy as far as i know.. so taking that away could end up problematic for that class? 

[Ashura]

If you leave the cleric with all its buffs and have a GM who buffs people in every Capital (Junon,Luna,Xita Refuge,Muris) and it is stronger than your normal cleric buffs then everyone will gravitate towards that, i agree the buffs have made people lazy by relying on it too much which is sad in my opinion but reality of the situation.

 

[Ashura]

18 hours ago, Jova1106 said:

Clerics can still be strong, and useful for healing and defensive buffs. Their offensive buffs were absolutely a problem

 

This isn't an "incorrect assumption". Classes weren't balanced well, especially near the end, and ESPECIALLY most cleric buffs. People who are defending the cleric buffs *probably* played cleric, and used the buffs to their advantage. I didn't have a cleric. It was hard to find clerics. I often saw other people with buffs, and if they were cleric buffs, they shredded things, while I had to fight at normal speed, which makes solo leveling take forever. On the off chance that I DID get buffed, everything was great until the buffs wore off, then I didn't feel like grinding at such a slow speed again, or leaving just to get those OP buffs. The fact that cleric buffs were THAT overpowered actually encouraged people to run multiple clients, just to have buffs all the time. Unfortunately, cleric buffs make things inherently unbalanced, unless everyone has access to them. People who main cleric should be playing cleric to support their party. Not just to buff people. If people like cleric ONLY for the buffs, then that class is anything BUT balanced, because those buffs were so much more overpowered than the rest of the spells, that nobody cares about those things, as long as the buffs aren't nerfed, right? That's a bad class design. Clerics could use more ways to heal effectively, and maybe give people some kind of lifesteal buff, along with some max armor/health, as well as things like hp/mana regen.

The other classes had issues as well, but I'm sure the devs are working on balancing everything. I'll be providing a lot of feedback when I get the chance to play.

 

This is ridiculous. The challenge won't be "gone". If anything, it will be more challenging, because clerics will have to actually do something useful, other than throw out buffs and go afk for the duration. Clerics are support. There are no other classes in the game that support anything, other than themselves.

The problem is that everyone is under the impression/assumption that the buffs made CLERICS OP which was and is not the case at all and it mainly enhanced other players existing qualities. So whoever says that clerics are OP definitely do not know what they are talking about.

[Bobbity]

I don't have much of substance to say on this topic YET. I'll add a good bit more once certain things have been said by specific people in this thread, CRAKE's skill mechanics thread and simiapurpura's castle siege wars thread.

 

First, some context:

My experience differs from the majority of the community in that I enjoyed the long, slow grind. I didn't multiclient my main. I didn't solicit buffs, I didn't look for parties. I had a tiny little gun and I shot innocent monsters with it. When the enraged monsters tried to gut me for this unprovoked indignity, I'd take as many hits as I dared and then run away to heal up - then rinse and repeat. I looted materials to craft potions that could help me, ammo for my gun, armor I could either wear, sell or disassemble for making my own. I enjoyed it immensely. The thought that I was solely responsible for my growth, if only I was smart enough, skillful enough, brave enough, planned well enough was my driver.

 

My two major alts were muses: one, an FS and the other a BC. My FS ended up in a cozy little clan where the chief crafted me a beautiful offhand with excellent substats. I'd level with one or two of my clannies and some randoms and enjoy a nice social experience. All this time, my main spent a lifetime and more grinding for the same accessory from the same mob on Luna. For 2 years. 

 

My experience doesn't trump that of others who lived by the buff and died by the buff. I enjoyed both lifestyles, both solitary living off the land and the one of social experiences. Hell, 2 of my clerics have a name meaning 'Party' in a non-English language. I'm proud to say that one of the best experiences I've ever had was being part of a multi-party group that leveled over 40 parties on Kenji Beach. I'm as proud of that as I am to have made it to level cap by my own efforts, using my own loot, crafting the solutions to my challenges and rising above them. And yet, my experiences gained from other games tell me I've walked a strangely artificial path. A lacking path. Things that could've been never were and I am mediocre. 

 

Your problem is NOT whether clerics are OP. They are not and never truly were, except in combat as finely-tuned BCs. (There are people better than me in terms of mechanics that can explain this.) Your problem is with the mechanics available to clerics AND ALL THE OTHER CLASSES such that each class is truly DIFFERENTIATED.

A raider should have natural competitive advantage in their field. They should be the best at what they do, and what they do isn't nice. 

Similarly, we have to identify what clerics SHOULD be best at. Don't just cling to the past and say "buffs". This is not a useful answer. Buffs are skills; they don't describe a purpose or a competitive advantage. What is a full-support cleric meant to BE? If your answer always gravitates towards "pa buff po" then, my dear Visitors, your problem lies in the game ROSE Online itself. Rush On Seven Hearts. There are hundreds of different mechanics and skillsets lazy and team could implement, given time and understanding. We should be moving past the nostalgic intoxicating drug of buffing newbies into superhumans and into making ROSE a game that engages and involves by its very design. Drugs are as destructive as they are fun, people.

 

We demigods formed by Arua's divine Love and our own will to be in that universe, are as deficient in our purpose as we are lacking in our lore.

I recommend you start fixing there.

 

[Ashura]

So true Bobbity i also soloed most of the time mainly because i always felt my buffs were inadequate for the party or if you have buffed which is the primary reason for being in the group you had to help defeat said mobs as well, i enjoyed my life of solitude and played the game at my own pace and explored many areas of the game apart from pvp areas. I have adapted my playing style to suite my clerics needs and relied on my own strengths no matter how insufficient they might have been but the journey towards the end was so self satisfying and fulfilling every single step of the way. 

[Krupis]

3 hours ago, Loerslang said:

Wouldn’t this take away the whole purpose of the support Cleric? That would mean the Muse job’s only choice would be a Mage. A support Cleric can’t level up all that easy as far as i know.. so taking that away could end up problematic for that class? 

Yes there will be no such thing as support cleric atl east not as such we used to. But once the beta starts we will see if its viable to play solo. We can only guess at this moment

[HoneyBuns]

I’m not a fan of polls in topics or suggestions so I did not “vote” in this one but I did want to give my 2 cents on the never-ending subject of the muse/cleric buffs.

Most of us have played ROSE for many years and we got used to things being a certain way.  This is especially true of iROSE players but in this case,  it applies to Evo players too.  Just because something was always a certain way does not mean it should be that way forever or that it should have ever been that way in the first place.

Playing ROSE has always meant needing buffs.  Some of us made our own clerics to accomplish that while others went on the search for a buffer every time they played. Imo the game has always been too dependent on buffs and although I will miss giving new players the flashy buffs my cleric had at NA, I think this change is necessary for the health of the game itself.

At NA my max level cleric had a total of 1306 charm (425 from the stat plus equipment, clan passive and gems).  Her buffs were indeed godly but if you look at that objectively, it’s totally insane and I can think of no situation where that should be considered normal or ok.

I’m fortunate to be one of the alpha testers and I have been dual clienting with my muse and hawker the same way I did on every ROSE server I’ve played at. It’s definitely different but it honestly has been just fine.  Sometimes I’ve been able to party up with another tester and having those extra buffs was nice but I’ve done ok the rest of the time when I am playing solo. I didn't need to make the muse for the buffs but the first time around I had just made the hawker and after the alpha wipe, I wanted to try dual clienting since that fits my usual playing style.

I guess my point is that you should go into it with an open mind. You will see for yourself that it's doable as a solo muse or in a dual client situation.  Honestly I think the Evo players will struggle more with the slower speed of leveling now since there are no costume exp bonuses, exp medals, clan passive exp boosts or premium account boosts but even that is fine once you adjust to the difference.  

Evo has always meant change and that's what makes it exciting.  This is just one more change and nothing to fear or worry about.  

 

 

[Ed]

let's face it guys, buffs are so imbalanced early game, specially if you have high int. so i prefer that they should remove it. just rescale the stats of the high level monsters. cos buffs makes it so easy to make another character when you have a full int cleric w/buffs, makes it easier for griefers/trolls who doesn't want to make their characters be hunted or be KSed on farm sites to make another character that does all the shitty things to ruin other players game experience.

edit: i even prefer to remove buffs to all classes at all if not just a base attribute buff for each class. leave the buff scrolls, and make partybuff scroll exclusive for cleric advantages. and give cleric regenerative buffs like heal per sec and +/- a moving orb that regenerates hp? that's killable.

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Ed

[Ashura]

I do get what everyone is saying regarding the buffs and unfortunately we are/were spoiled by it and all i hear is change this change that cleric this cleric that either way i can play with a cleric just because i love the class and can adept. If changes are going to be made then changes should be made across the board because the changes affecting a cleric negatively impacts the class no matter what anyone says regarding the changes how you should adapt.

Raiders are so OP with the fast atk spd and high dodge which makes it almost impossible for other classes to consistently do damage, champs with their insane health and damage output also eclipse clerics damage, dealers with their mercs do more damage than a clerics summons and on top of their natural damage output and also magic shield also nerfed so what positives do we draw from all of this if i might ask?

Not trying to be a wet blanket but yeah all i see is deductions on a class not even really played for what its for but just overly abused for what it can give to others.

Bourg - launcher spd increased

all other classes got their respective buffs and which enhances their attributes.

   

[Jova1106]

On 7/11/2022 at 11:20 AM, Ashura said:

The problem is that everyone is under the impression/assumption that the buffs made CLERICS OP which was and is not the case at all and it mainly enhanced other players existing qualities. So whoever says that clerics are OP definitely do not know what they are talking about.

The buffs were op.

[Ashura]

2 minutes ago, Jova1106 said:

The buffs were op.

Explain how the buffs were OP? If you had to take stock character classes with just cleric buffs who would win between Soldier,Hawker,Dealer,Muse? Just their base stats were maxed all the same level without added gems, refinements.

Who would win in an all out slug fest?

[Zurn]

I’d almost say the katar hawker, but maybe soldier or dealer depending on raw power and status ailments. 
 

muse I doubt would win at all, mana shield I feel wouldn’t help much without all the passives in the second trees 

[Bobbity]

Muses tend to use wands, so they have ranged magic dmg but their nukes are mediocre and deal flat dmg that doesn't scale to lategame. The more hp their enemies have, the worse off they all are. The heals are also pathetic. Muses die first or second, depending on if there's collusion. Hawker would win, of course. Earlygame hawkers tend to have a very slight positional advantage over katars or dualhanders.