General Cleric change discussion

[Avatar]

1 hour ago, Mon said:

Is charm the main stats for buff like in narose?

Yes. And each classes main stat is a secondary for buffs. 

[Critpeak]

I've waited for this game for such a long time...

And now it's return have been announced, only for me to be disappointed by such an extreme change in classes, which doesn't feel like rose anymore.

Cleric is a support class, and should remain as such. 

Reason:

You make a character, you've found different classes to "party" with for buffs, then you've decided to try another class, but sadly now there aren't as much people around your level to party with, therefore you have no buffs, you get slow progress, bad game experience - and finally no fun at all.

If you want to improve social gameplay and encourage parties:

Leave cleric to have all buffs, but:

Cleric will have most powerful hp//mp buffs, and the rest of the buffs will be weakened, if you party with other classes - their respective buffs will overpower the weaker cleric buffs.

For example knight will bring stronger def buff.

Champion will bring stronger attack buff.

Raiders will bring stronger dodge buff & attack speed buff.

Scouts - movement speed buff

Mages - mdef buff.

Artisans hitting rate buff.

And finally the bourgs will have stronger critical buff.

 

Just don't change the core of the game in such depth, where cleric support class is no longer support class.

I personally would be very disappointed if that is the case and probably quickly lose my longing desire to play again.

[Averybee24601]

I completely agree with everything you’ve said. And this change will just exacerbate the buff slave problem too, which was the whole point of changing clerics they wanted to avoid. It will make it worse by spreading the buffs out making multiple classes useless and used for the sole purpose of buffing, rather than just cleric, the intended support class. I guess we will see once ea rolls around, but I am hoping they will revert the changes

[Bobbity]

On 8/6/2022 at 4:30 AM, Architect said:

I totally agree with @cyaneyedlion 100%

I, too agree with @cyaneyedlion. Which post?

 But seriously though: imagine being a cleric of the old meta. Your DPS is pitiful, your movespeed is mediocre and you are either made of papier mache, Raditz or glass. All that people want from you is buffs every t minutes. Inbetween buffing intervals you don't even exist except as the spiritual anchor for your salamander and/or mana flames. Maybe a heal every once in a while. Did someone die? Not their fault for being out of position, for being reckless, for aggroing too many mobs. Somehow, it's your fault. Did everybody die? Well, you've got to take care of that, don't you? A thankless job on average. Noobs rejoice when they see you, of course. To them, you are the Hand of God, shading them from the pitiless sun on a day when there is no other shade. But to everyone else you're a dispenser. A vending machine.

I could go on but those of you who feel that there IS NO OTHER PATH ARE NOT SEEING THE ENTIRE PICTURE. The system was rigged and imbalanced from the get-go. ROSE was never meant to be as complicated as it has become. As a result, we're stuck with a systemic imbalance so severe it's plagued the game for nigh-on a decade. It's literally become something delaying release.

 

We need to break free.

[Averybee24601]

2 minutes ago, Bobbity said:

I, too agree with @cyaneyedlion. Which post?

 But seriously though: imagine being a cleric of the old meta. Your DPS is pitiful, your movespeed is mediocre and you are either made of papier mache, Raditz or glass. All that people want from you is buffs every t minutes. Inbetween buffing intervals you don't even exist except as the spiritual anchor for your salamander and/or mana flames. Maybe a heal every once in a while. Did someone die? Not their fault for being out of position, for being reckless, for aggroing too many mobs. Somehow, it's your fault. Did everybody die? Well, you've got to take care of that, don't you? A thankless job on average. Noobs rejoice when they see you, of course. To them, you are the Hand of God, shading them from the pitiless sun on a day when there is no other shade. But to everyone else you're a dispenser. A vending machine.

I could go on but those of you who feel that there IS NO OTHER PATH ARE NOT SEEING THE ENTIRE PICTURE. The system was rigged and imbalanced from the get-go. ROSE was never meant to be as complicated as it has become. As a result, we're stuck with a systemic imbalance so severe it's plagued the game for nigh-on a decade. It's literally become something delaying release.

 

We need to break free.

Explain how removing clerics buffs will make the cleric stronger

[Critpeak]

And from what I've seen in the videos, in the "new meta" you are cleric without buffs - with the same pitiful dps.

[Bobbity]

I don't support what we'll get when EA is deployed; I fancy something more interesting. Please see my suggestion 

for more details.

[Averybee24601]

2 minutes ago, Bobbity said:

I don't support what we'll get when EA is deployed; I fancy something more interesting. Please see my suggestion 

for more details.

I will read it but I do not think that cleric should become more powerful tbh it is the support class and making it way stronger will defeat the purpose of the class. And I really like it’s roll. Disregarding all of this, battle cleric is already super OP if built well and I am quite certain it will be in the meta

[Critpeak]

3 minutes ago, Bobbity said:

I don't support what we'll get when EA is deployed; I fancy something more interesting. Please see my suggestion 

for more details.

I see nothing from R.O.S.E. core in this suggestion.

[Bobbity]

You may assume that anything I haven't discussed is as it was on last sight. So, it's really buffs that were changed to auras and some special skills added. The core role is still support but there isn't such a sharp divide between fs and bc anymore. Muses and clerics have more sources of exp and are capable from the start. Play is more active and active play is rewarded. Clerics also become more useful in dg and arena PvP.

[Godrix]

I honestly do not understand why they would do this to clerics

First of all it does not solve anything long term at all and in fact makes things worse, instead of having 1 buff slave your going to have people level up to 7 chars on an alt account and give themself a free stat reset to turn all of them into a buff slave and just log on each one which takes a few moments.

You are literally just making multiple buff slaves instead of 1 the meta

Second  not everyone wants to or is able to find a group to party with, some people play a few hours a day and just want to grind with their 1 buff slave or play with their one cleric friend and worry about having to split their loot between several people cause they need ro want their buffs.

By nerfing clerics buffs you are literally catering to the more end game players and the ones that can't play much i guess they are  SOL for not having several high level buff slaves.

It's annoying seeing buff  please every 5 minutes but you know what as a healer in a lot of games i make a lot of in game friends that way and get invited to a lot of groups and it feels good to help people knowing my buffs are helping them progress. in some games i have gone to newbie areas to give  buffs  which makes the players happy, they feel like the server is welcoming and active and they are valued, who's going to want to go to the newbie area with half baked buffs like seriously.

If as a cleric i can give every class buff they only have to share the loot with me and we can take on harder areas and bosses as a duo.

Early game clerics do not have enough charm to really be a game changer but late game people will just start making several buff slaves and rotate buffs from the alt account

 

 

[Bobbity]

For efficiency's sake, in a game where fire-and-forget buffs exist buffslavery is the ideal, the preferred, the go-to. Considering for how long we've been playing like this, even if alternatives exist alongside buffs, we will choose buffslavery.

With this in mind we should move away from buffs entirely. I don't think we're quite ready for that yet but that's where we're moving towards. Because buffslavery is a stupid systemic imbalance symptomatic of design failure. Yes, it feels good to buff newbies. I've mentioned this before. It feels really, really good. Some people are basing their decision to play again solely on whether they will get that feeling again. I won't dismiss that nostalgia; instead, I reckon we can design away problems caused by it. Buffs could exist but maybe their efficacy would only be highest on lowbie targets; when cast by a max level max CHA Cleric maybe they only give flat number boosts and those don't stack with whatever the alternative to buffs are. (I suggest auras like those from my latest cleric suggestion linked in this thread.) So, the higher-level your target, the less useful your buffs are, to the point where equal-level targets won't even bother asking for them.

 

Does this accommodate being a buff-'god', worshipped by the ignorant unwashed masses of noobdom?

[Critpeak]

Every monster/boss/armor/damage mechanic in the game is build around the cleric support class with it's respective buffs.

In the same way you can remove all mage debuffs so mage class won't be a debuff slave for high tier bosses.

[Bobbity]

Parties don't rely on mage debuffs to take down a boss, though... 

EDIT: Almost every class has a debuff of some sort. You could, of course, make a CHA-INT mage with awesome debuffs but it wouldn't automatically be the norm. That's not the meta. But buffslave clerics are the meta. So much so that people refuse to explore alternatives or consider how buffing Visitor base stats affects that meta.  

Edited November 23, 2022 by Bobbity

[Sathanas]

From years of parties and soloing i think the cleric changes are a pretty terrible idea. Especially after fighting actual combat oriented clerics in wars, that simply buffed in 1 set of gear, then zipped around in hard to kill armor sets during actual battles. Good clerics completely changed games and required skill, time, gear, and game knowledge to do well. 

 

Just from a pve aspect keeping a party alive in a really rough area was kind of a chore, and if we ar missing buffs now because we couldn't find "x" character that nobody plays for a very specific buff, aoe parties in several areas that i can think of are going to SUCK. 

 

You guys dont need to re-invent the wheel on this one. Just simply fix some of the broken aspects before the last developers went full on cash shop pay to win and just make the game not all Sword Champs and Katar Raiders and you are doing well. 

[Sathanas]

2 hours ago, Bobbity said:

Parties don't rely on mage debuffs to take down a boss, though... 

EDIT: Almost every class has a debuff of some sort. You could, of course, make a CHA-INT mage with awesome debuffs but it wouldn't automatically be the norm. That's not the meta. But buffslave clerics are the meta. So much so that people refuse to explore alternatives or consider how buffing Visitor base stats affects that meta.  

Wasn't high charm mages the go to for mana burn and things like that before it was nerfed? I distinctly remember PVP mana burn basically one shotting nearly all enemies Mana pools before it got nerfed...and then the high charm slows....Phew!

[Bobbity]

Yeah, I remember that was a thing for a while. Very annoying. I can't recall if that became a standard for anybody since I stopped doing organized PvP for the last few years of NA.

[Critpeak]

Mages are  another topic, but clerics are a MAIN subject which affects every single person playing, no matter if they're playing as one or not.

Aside from my general opinion which I gave you a good reason why cleric should retain all the buffs, I'll give you few more examples why the supposed new cleric playstyle won't be popular and will be neglected as a choose to play character:

1. You have 2-3-4 hours per day playtime, let's say in the beginning you've found a group of individuals (each of them playing a different class), you play in party, have benefits from the new buffing system. A few days pass - rest of the group have more time than you to play and they quickly out level you. You will be left to play solo, without any support class to aid you. Resulting in slow progress, no competitiveness, you won't be able to stay on track with the economy.

2. Solo grinders/small groups of friends (considerable group of rose community) - if they are used to have a support class in their group and play with another specific class, now they will be forced to play all kind of classes, which some of them probably won't like - just to be competitive. As for major grinders - they will forced to grind all type of class, use all kind of vpns and such to bypass the client restrictions, just so they can enjoy the playstyle of rose they enjoy most and have been used to with for years.

3. Total newbies to the game - majority of players have started at some point in any type of server (official or private) from scratch - every single one of those people have had experienced the joy of being buffed by a friendly high level cleric, who happens to enjoy another main perk of the cleric class - standing in a beginner spot, buffing everyone for fun. Socializing and making new friends.

If you remove that from the game - there will be a significant portion of players who either won't be able to enjoy that part of the game, or won't be able to contribute for that part of the game.

If this is going to be a long term project, changing parts of the game which have been like this for almost 20 years is not the solution - everyone who knows and have played this game at some point is used to classes as they are.

If you want to add something new - either add a completely new job/classes or add 3rd job which each class will be able to choose for themselves.

Another thing which will keep hardcore rose players is possibility to finally see what rose was meant to be, what the name stands for - rush on seven episodes. Slowly expanding rose world to all of it's planets, remodeling and expanding useless old features like castle gears per say. Enabling factions to have greater impact. 

There are plenty of paths which the game have left unexplored and untouched. 

Dividing the perks which single class has amongst the rest - will simply kill that class as a choose-to-play.

[ScaryScarf]

In my opinion better leave old skill tree,stats(buffs,int'n'cha bulid etc etc).You asking why the reason is very simple don't make this game a mordern MMO or ripoff mechanics where each class have own buff and healer/support/cleric ONLY heal, fight ONLY in case reduce cooldowns to use again heal or other healing skill/ability.That game have own unique combat system.Maybe i remind a one thing in RoseNA in each patch notes more or less cleric every time getting nerf then after two weeks cleric back to normal way because people talking that class become squishy.Next thing a term called "buff slave" or "cleric-pocket" that thing will be always even if you remove all buffs from one class (read cleric) get to own buffs to each class that give nothing because from nonwhere appear a one person who create a account with x (put random number) chars with those buffs and don’t care anything some kind puny cleric or use that in critical moment .Instead of delete one char you getting a x chars with diffrent buffs,stats etc.But dont go to other side like give a cleric bot with 30 mins buffs like on private servers (in particular one if still active).For me better focus on story,planets,locations,loot,other things, than massacre this class.

 

For someone don’t understand what i type so i summary that: leave class and focus on other aspects.

 

Sorry for my freaking bad grammar and others things about write sentence my bad.

[SteveOmaha]

Just play the game and see before whining sheesh.  Or don't play and move on.  It's a free game

[Bobbity]

'free game no whining' lol

Serious question: You've seen the suggestions made for cleric skills. Is it possible to accommodate the old way AND do something new? People really loved buffing newbies and nostalgia's a big draw for returning players, after all. What if we had both buffs and auras, not stacking with each other? Buffs meant for static play (buffing noobs) and auras meant for active party/dg play.

 

We know that people regard clerics who just fire off buffs and stand there as leeches on exp (inaccurately so). They'd prefer another damage source for reliable speedy grinding. That's what people want, after all - more damage, more exp, sooner. What if we just gave clerics a damage source?

As an example, let's say clerics had another type of 'flame'.

Storm Cloud:

A divine storm cloud that grants spell cd reduction and fires off Voltage Storm whenever allies cast spells in its AoE. 10-25% chance to fire Voltage Storm when cleric hits an enemy. 5-10% chance for non-clerics to proc a Voltage Storm on hit. Clerics also enjoy 5 more stacks on Cleric's Intensity within the area of effect.

 

Could something like this work? 2 modes for play + a damage source? I've been thinking of changing CHA so it gives muses/clerics more exp from both leveling and questing, with party members enjoying the exp boost as well. It's just a bit static for me, though, so I added the storm cloud.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Bobbity
Left out some words again, sigh.

[Majestic]

5 hours ago, SteveOmaha said:

Just play the game and see before whining sheesh.  Or don't play and move on.  It's a free game

really dude really immature comment and sad i feel really bad for you seriosly
that attitude wont help the devs and its not going to help the community of rose online
leave the cleric class alone stop messing with classes, you can only refine them not revamp and changing the whole playstyle, cuz rose playstyle was unique and fun as it as
devs need to focus on conntent and story bugs everything around rose and not classes
classes are nostalgia that doesn't need anything but refinement a bit and balance cooldowns or adding more skills
i hope for revertion
if you so open minded try that point of view and leave us alone with our fun
if you dont like cleric playstyle i will use ur comment dont play

[asaa]

Guys, 

Buffs getting spread out throughout the classes will only be great at launch when there is a ton of players at each level range to party up with. It will be easy to find different classes because it’s launch and everyone is playing different classes.
 

But what about later on? There will be a time when every party is going to be missing a specific class in order to be fully buffed. People will get too far ahead of the pack in leveling or fall too far behind. What if you’re alone in an area, how are you going to buff up? You will have SLOW, painful progress.

Spreading out buffs or having clerics posses all the buffs lead to a big issue of making the game scale around buffed characters/parties. 

My suggestions are either to remove buffs completely and scale the game without buffs or to make all the buffs become consumables which can be easily available to all classes on demand (bought from an npc).

To counter the cleric’s uselessness, all you have to do is add content that requires ACTIVE healing. Like adding group activities (dungeons) which require clerics to make sure the party stays alive, and are otherwise unclear-able if you don’t have capable healers.
 

You can make it even more interesting and give clerics more support skills like protection bubbles and healing over time skills, etc etc. That would keep clerics on their toes while partying up (not just stand still and buff) and also keep their demand high for partying.

[asaa]

5 minutes ago, X15 said:

Guys, 

Buffs getting spread out throughout the classes will only be great at launch when there is a ton of players at each level range to party up with. It will be easy to find different classes because it’s launch and everyone is playing different classes.
 

But what about later on? There will be a time when every party is going to be missing a specific class in order to be fully buffed. People will get too far ahead of the pack in leveling or fall too far behind. What if you’re alone in an area, how are you going to buff up? You will have SLOW, painful progress.

Spreading out buffs or having clerics posses all the buffs lead to a big issue of making the game scale around buffed characters/parties. 

My suggestions are either to remove buffs completely and scale the game without buffs or to make all the buffs become consumables which can be easily available to all classes on demand (bought from an npc).

To counter the cleric’s uselessness, all you have to do is add content that requires ACTIVE healing. Like adding group activities (dungeons) which require clerics to make sure the party stays alive, and are otherwise unclear-able if you don’t have capable healers.
 

You can make it even more interesting and give clerics more support skills like protection bubbles and healing over time skills, etc etc. That would keep clerics on their toes while partying up (not just stand still and buff) and also keep their demand high for partying.

Also, won’t some classes benefit more from their class buffs in a 1v1 PvP scenario? What will a champion withstr and hp buffs do against a raider with dodge buffs? 

[Bobbity]

It does depend on the champ, tbh (sword champ might do okay, spear champ would do reliable aoe dmg before dying, axe champ will either succeed with one crit or flail around uselessly) but very good point. The idea of distributed buffs relies on the idea of a party and doesn't work in 1v1. Maybe this is how it should be; I know that I'd expect to pwn an axe champ if I were a raider.

Somewhere on the forums I suggested some compromise between static buff play and more engaged active play using auras and other stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if the devs see the problem and are brainstorming a solution. After all, it's an obvious point of failure.