enhancements Skill/Stat Reset NPC in Junon

[Jova1106]

I think it would be a good idea to have an NPC in Junon for resetting skills and stats. It would make sense to give players free skill/stat resets until level 100, so (especially new) players can experiment without being punished, or they can just reset if they pick the wrong skills/stats. After level 100, I think it would make sense to charge something like 1 million * each level you have over 100, with a base cost of 50 million Zulie, or something in that range. So, if you're level 157, it should cost 107 million Zulie for someone to reset their skills or stats. It wouldn't be free, but it would be affordable enough to be able to get a reset past level 100, if someone wants one.

[Bobbity]

There was a long discussion about this on Discord before this forum came into being. This topic is contentious. Why? Differences in game philosophy. Some believe that lowering barriers to resetting skills and stats promotes party play ( as in, playing with actual IRL friends ). Others felt that there should be value in being forced to min-max your stats and skills. The effort alone! A few people felt that (secretly) knowing someone's stats and skill build allowed them to plan ahead for ways to counter them in PvP or something.

 

Re: the last thing - the game lacks the layers of mechanics to make 'knowing someone's build' valuable info. Most builds are meta or close to meta. We don't have hidden classes, truly unique skills etc. In fact, some of those P2W IM skills could be modified into Unique/Hidden skills, I reckon. Right now, this particular argument holds no water.

 

Re: the second-last view - there is value in this effort but it's artificial value. That value exists only for as long as the artificial barriers to resetting are high. More on this in the next paragraph.

 

Re: the first view - It's true  that not punishing players and letting them freely mess about with their stats and skills can make for a fun time, but with every layer of adversity we remove, gameplay becomes less memorable and less interesting. For those of you who've seen the videos linked in the updates about adversity in games, that's basically the argument. We need to establish a workable balance between adversity and freedom of choice. 

Now, you'd think zulie would be a good answer for this, as zulie is basically liquid effort. Effort converted into tradeable currency. Unfortunately, if we still have a stagnant economy in future getting 1 billion zulie "zulie pls" from bored veterans idling in Junon market with theirCGs (looking at you, HoneyBuns) or zulie sellers won't be as big of an obstacle as you're thinking. So, this could be doable if we figure out everything attached to using zulie as a conversion mechanic as well as explore other mechanics.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Bobbity
Left out some words again, sigh.

[HoneyBuns]

Right now there is one free stat and one free skill reset available from Mayor Darren in Junon Polis but honestly, I would rather see the reset skills just added to the skill trees permanently.   New players will make mistakes even after reaching level 100 and since the retraining/reset books will no longer be in the Item Mall, there is no reason to make resets difficult to get.   All players would benefit from being able to make adjustments to their stats and skills as they progress in the game.

Remember too that zulie will not be as easy to get as it was in NA because there will not be valuable IM items available in player shops.  50 million zulie was nothing in NA but it will be a big deal here.

[Wondertje]

I think resetting should be limited, either by level (only at level x or below | only at max level (like a reborn system)), time (only once per x time) - or something else like a hard cap, maximum amount of times. Having resets available 100% of the time promotes a gamestyle that just hinges on "recreating" your character to be optimal for whatever you need at that moment. Doing PvP against x character? Throw some stats into y. Doing this dungeon? Throw some stats into z. It doesn't encourage actually building a character and making choices when building it. This is partly also true for the zulie limit, it's a rather arbitrary limit that I'm absolutely sure a lot of people will have more than enough money to just do just what I described whenever they want.

I agree it should be possible, but I think the premise around it needs to be towards letting new players learn the game, not letting old, max level veterans use the game in sandbox mode.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Wondertje

[LordAlbion]

I believe that a stat/skill reset option is a a must. As said in this thread, people, even non "noobs" will make mistakes, or just deceide to try something else. Maybe have a npc give you the option every 10 levels or so?

[Avatar]

8 minutes ago, LordAlbion said:

I believe that a stat/skill reset option is a a must. As said in this thread, people, even non "noobs" will make mistakes, or just deceide to try something else. Maybe have a npc give you the option every 10 levels or so?

I am in total favor of your suggestion of every 10 levels. 

[HoneyBuns]

Resetting stats still requires you to strip the character of all equipment so I doubt that will be an issue in pvp and it takes awhile to reallocate those stats.  Plus both parties involved would have the same capability so things would still be equal or as equal as pvp ever is.

My concern is not only for brand new players but also for old iROSE players who have never tried Evo before.  I know from personal experience that it is MUCH harder to unlearn what you have known for years than it is to learn it fresh.  There are literally hundreds of differences between Evo and iROSE, both big and small, and forcing those players to suffer because they built their toons based on what they knew before rather than how things are here seems just cruel to me.

Even with the info available in the stat window in the game, the only way to really see how a build works is by using it and with things like charm being needed for buffs for every job class, making resets available is essential imo.  

[Wondertje]

I don't think anyone mentioned anything about letting new players suffer. Anyone who has a max level character and who daily respecs it to fit their minute perfect details of what they're about to do (no one was talking about during a PvP game) is literally the same as just having full GM tools - I've done that on several other servers. It's a sandbox mode version of the game and it negates the whole point of what building a character is. Respeccing should not be free and encouraged (in that way), it should be available in a case of need and it should be controlled. But that's just my two cents, I don't want characters in the game to become "It's a bird, it's a plane" type of things.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Wondertje
Typo

[Avatar]

I think HoneyBuns has a valid argument here. 

When I FIRST came to Evo, I probably stayed for about a day and left right after. I was fortunate enough to find RuffRose and continued on with them as I never cared for the new Evo style in terms of gameplay, skill changes, buff changes, etc. I wasn't alone in this regard, either. I stayed away from evo for years. 

If you're truly wanting as many old players to return as possible, there will have to be the option to reset stats/skills in some way, shape, or form. The old way of having once per character can't continue as 1: the returning players are going to expect how they last remembered it and 2: even the players playing the most recent Evo will have a hard time depending on how many aspects of this game is getting changed by the current developers. 

I'll tell you one thing, if I were to return to this server and messed up my stats without even realizing it and gain a high enough level, I would simply not play anymore. The reason being I returned most likely with some friends. We're going to want to party together and main 1 character, especially if the current developers are making it more so that that's their vision. People want to hit cap ASAP and are not going to wait for me to restart a character all over because I'm unable to reset skills/stats. As HoneyBuns pointed out, CHA is needed to enhance buffs. When I returned to the previous Evo server, I was unaware of this change. I put all the stats into INT because that's how its always been. I was a little ticked that it changed as I had to purchase a stat reset/purchase gems all over again (as I had Topazes) to get my buffs as best as possible. 

People, I don't think, are going to want to spend money on this game, at least not right away. They'll want to see how much this game has changed and how much the developer team doesn't lean towards p2w items. If they have to spend money off the bat because of something as silly as a stat reset, then good luck. 

[Vile]

Unlimited. Free. Maybe a 10-30minute cooldown per use. 
Adjusting your build to participate in content is fundamental in every game. 
Asking players to level 3 characters just so they can do Dungeons, Farming, or PvP is nonsensical and an antique / archaic way of looking at it. 

Once again, it's nostalgia limiting scope of vision. Stop making compromises because we never had resets and just ask for what everyone really wants. Respectable, free resets within reason, that allow 1 player character, to do all forms of content with minor adjustments on reasonable cooldowns. 

none of this needing to have a PvP loadout, and PvE loadout, with level specific resets and or paid tradable/non-tradable reset, like. Just stop complicating it. 

[Wondertje]

14 minutes ago, OwlchemistVile said:

Asking players to level 3 characters just so they can do Dungeons, Farming, or PvP is nonsensical and an antique / archaic way of looking at it.

I'd disagree it's archaic - a lot of games don't have resets at all or limit them somehow. Their goal is to make every character equally good at everything anyway, so that's a weird argument. Nostalgia has nothing to do with not wanting free, unlimited resets (at least not in my view, can't speak for anyone else). It's about a choice of gamestyle that I don't think should be promoted.

---

Building a character should take skill and time, and should require focus. A character should be a character, not a constant blank canvas ready for 'order of the day'. There are better ways to balance classes so that people can build characters that are reasonably suitable for multiple things. In fact, there are already classes that are better at more things, and classes that are better at fewer things. This should be taken care of in the class balance - not by constantly resetting characters. I also still, strongly, believe that choosing a class and building a character should be a trade-off. I know of no other game where they offer different classes and character builds while also just giving you all of them for free because they think it's unfair if they're different/not every build is the same.

EDIT: To clarify, yes there should be resets - they just shouldn't be free and/or unlimited.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Wondertje
Grammar

[Vile]

I'm not re-leveling a character, just because I got bored of the playstyle of a build, in order to preserve an artificial sense of commitment in a video game. If that's the way of things, I'd pack up and go somewhere else that doesn't force me to waste unreasonable amounts of time to make minor adjustments in build.  I've been reading through the forums for a bit today. And I've noticed you have a tendency to argue for things to stay the same, or the spirit of the same in terms of limiting, aggressively interfering with or obstructing player freedom as a design feature. I'm not sure if you've noticed that, but you're very passionate about preserving a very old way of thinking with game design, and if they applied everything I've seen you support, the game would be so rigid, I'd never even touch it, let alone enjoy it, continue to play it, promote it, or support it with any form of patronage. Maybe something to consider. 

[Wondertje]

Then maybe we like different games and we'll have to see where this goes. The developers have themselves said they want to stay "in the spirit" of the game, so clearly they also have a connection to how it used to be and the feel of the game. The things I'm passionate about are fundamental things, yes. But there's no restriction on freedom on top of that. I've played, alpha/beta tested and helped develop several games and there needs to be a non-player invasive fundament to build on, otherwise it's just a big sandbox and isn't really a game at all.

[Vile]

Oh I'm sure you have. Any successful mentions you'd like to name drop? 
The spirit of a game isn't it's systems. It's the lore, the world and environments. The style, texture, grit and scope. Systems and mechanics are moot to the life a game has, all they do is impact players tactile feel. A game can be beautiful and wonderful to look at, but if it feels like shoving a dead horse through sand dunes and resists you at every opportunity, then you have a problem. 

[Ilsalay]

Resets should absolutely be available. They shouldn't be free.

They could easily scale off X amount of Zulie times your level. Or be an increasing amount the more it's done with a cap of some kind - an increasing infinite value would be absurd.

There will definitely be people that don't want to have 2 Artisans - one that crafts, one that plays the game. They'll respec for crafting, go back when done.

There will be people that will have to respec for PvP vs PvE. They shouldn't HAVE to build a separate PvP character just because they felt like dipping in to PvP from their normal PvE playing.

It should be straightforward, simple, easy. Just a small reasonable zulie fee.

[Wondertje]

1 minute ago, OwlchemistVile said:

The spirit of a game isn't it's systems.

I strongly disagree, the systems are what builds everything else that creates the spirit and feeling of a game. Not being able to fly is part of a system, and it's integral to the feel of many games, ROSE included. I agree that games should be smooth and not have a lot of resistance - I just don't agree that these things that are discussed are necessarily part of such resistance. I'm sure they are to you, as you've described. And I'm sure many people agree with you. But I also know some people don't, and I'm one of them. I mean you no disrespect, your opinion is equally valid as anyone elses.

To bring a more relevant example: The developers are not planning on adding a follow player function because it is not in the spirit of the game. Another system mechanic that's integral to part of what makes the game what it is.

[Vile]

I'm fine with a zulie fee, just don't get all gung-ho on the number of sinks in the game or else you'll have a deficit economy and everyone will go broke. People forget the inflation seen on NA took 15 years to happen. It didn't start out that way. But as long as it's reasonable? And by reasonable I mean easily affordable to swap once or twice a day without breaking the bank, then sure. I could support that.  

[Vile]

"I strongly disagree" Good for you, that's not an argument. 
" Not being able to fly is part of a system..." Not being able to fly is the distinct lack of a function. 
"...and it's integral to the feel of many games, ROSE included." One would argue, from the professionals* at places like Blizzard, Activition, EA, Naughtydog, Rockstar and more, that you build your world first. Then you design the systems that interact and make use of the world. Because that's what they do. You don't go "I want a game that have robot mounts grappling hooks pirates and poker because those are the core systems that give my game life. Now, what does that world look like..... It's illogical. And you'll design yourself into a hellhole. 
"The developers are not planning on adding a follow player function because it is not in the spirit of the game" Yeah, they don't have to do that because they already have it with the Cart system and using a backseat...

You seem to conflate the games intractability, with what gives the game it's character. But, lets for fun say you are right, and the systems contribute to a games feel or spirit. What kind of spirit does a game have, if it's constantly limiting and annoying you, or telling you that because you don't feel like doing the exact same thing today, that you need to go invest another couple hundred hours to get something slightly different. I'd argue, that games feel or spirit, would objectively [not subjectively] suck. In fact, we have an example of that. it's called *drum roll please* ROSE Online! Or did you forget it died, not once, not twice, but 5 times on official servers and version. 

Not addressing the pain points, and saying "but they're what define the game" is literally going to repeat the same results. A dead game, shut down, because it was too annoying to bother with. 
 

Edited July 27, 2022 by OwlchemistVile

[Wondertje]

9 minutes ago, OwlchemistVile said:

I'd argue, that games feel or spirit, would objectively [not subjectively] suck.

A feeling is, by its very definition, subjective.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Wondertje

[Vile]

You misunderstand the statement. The game shutting down, was not subjective. Doing the same thing, no matter how you subjectively feel, will result in the same objective outcome. Was a nice try with a gotcha, but this aint my first rodeo. 

[Avatar]

Owl, thank you for mentioning the aspect of Rose Online that inevitably got it killed. The playstyle (grinding) is a really old concept and not being able to change any aspect of your character (unless you paid for it) really got annoying to people. You are absolutely correct in stating that if the dev's want this game to succeed, there are a few key aspects that will have to change. I just hope some attention is being given to this topic. 

[Bobbity]

The OP's post suggested using zulie as a metric and both HB and Owlchemist are correct that this should technically not be a problem from the start. Managed well, the economy should be okay with it. Of course, something less fluid like quests could perhaps work better.

Playing in sandbox mode with characters as blank canvases isn't roleplay, especially in a roleplay game that uses distinct classes. Allowing me for a moment to be subjective, it doesn't feel like roleplay. We definitely want to have SOME level of barrier, something that preserves the distinctions between classes. We shouldn't just rely on artificial scarcity of skill points, zulie and time only. I hope Rednim thinks outside the box here.

 

@OwlchemistVile@Wondertje Your input is, as always, informed and enlightening. However, turning a forum thread into a hostile personal conversation is neither of those. Please use the forum direct messaging or other means to communicate your personal conversation. We shouldn't have to waste moderator time on cleaning up posts when this isn't our first rodeo.

 

Thanks, guys! Keep it coming!

[Avatar]

2 minutes ago, Bobbity said:

The OP's post suggested using zulie as a metric and both HB and Owlchemist are correct that this should technically not be a problem from the start. Managed well, the economy should be okay with it. Of course, something less fluid like quests could perhaps work better.

Playing in sandbox mode with characters as blank canvases isn't roleplay, especially in a roleplay game that uses distinct classes. Allowing me for a moment to be subjective, it doesn't feel like roleplay. We definitely want to have SOME level of barrier, something that preserves the distinctions between classes. We shouldn't just rely on artificial scarcity of skill points, zulie and time only. I hope Rednim thinks outside the box here.

 

@OwlchemistVile@Wondertje Your input is, as always, informed and enlightening. However, turning a forum thread into a hostile personal conversation is neither of those. Please use the forum direct messaging or other means to communicate your personal conversation. We shouldn't have to waste moderator time on cleaning up posts when this isn't our first rodeo.

 

Thanks, guys! Keep it coming!

Are you stating that their suggestions are allowing a character to switch classes too? I'm confused about the first part of your statement. 

 

Also, I don't believe there were any hostilities here. These two are passionate about their opinions regarding a game we all love and were defending their positions. No personal attacks were given from either side, either.. So I'm at a loss with what you mean by turning this forum into a hostile environment. The conversations that both had were very productive, in fact. 

[Bobbity]

3 minutes ago, Avatar said:

You are absolutely correct in stating that if the dev's want this game to succeed, there are a few key aspects that will have to change. I just hope some attention is being given to this topic. 

Yes, definitely doing what we've always done will get us what we've always gotten, etc. We have the means to think of better ways and the time to do it. Well, I hope we have time; the dev team seems to be knee-deep in all sorts of things, so who knows when release will be.

I'm reminded of Path of Exile's Yggdrasil-like skill tree (skilldrassil, if you like). It's not something I'd like to see in Rose Online but it offers some interesting insights in what could be done. (No, it's not just the complexity or the fluidity...) Classes SHOULD feel like what we picked them for. A scout should feel like  scout and, to varying degrees satisfy player scout wish fulfilment fantasies, etc. I reckon making classes more distinctive with greater options should help in reducing the need for skill resets while keeping the reset option *relatively* accessible.

[Bobbity]

Just now, Avatar said:

Are you stating that their suggestions are allowing a character to switch classes too? I'm confused about the first part of your statement. 

 

Switching classes isn't something we can do right now anyway, so I definitely am not suggesting that. However, there should be a degree of fluidity available considering many things have changed in the 15+ years of Rose.