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Skill/Stat Reset NPC in Junon


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1 minute ago, Bobbity said:

Yes, definitely doing what we've always done will get us what we've always gotten, etc. We have the means to think of better ways and the time to do it. Well, I hope we have time; the dev team seems to be knee-deep in all sorts of things, so who knows when release will be.

I'm reminded of Path of Exile's Yggdrasil-like skill tree (skilldrassil, if you like). It's not something I'd like to see in Rose Online but it offers some interesting insights in what could be done. (No, it's not just the complexity or the fluidity...) Classes SHOULD feel like what we picked them for. A scout should feel like  scout and, to varying degrees satisfy player scout wish fulfilment fantasies, etc. I reckon making classes more distinctive with greater options should help in reducing the need for skill resets while keeping the reset option *relatively* accessible.

No where in these threads are we advocating for people to be able to change their classes. Did you read these posts in its entirety? The only thing being argued is to give the players a choice to reset their stats/skills. No one here mentioned changing jobs. 

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6 minutes ago, Avatar said:

Are you stating that their suggestions are allowing a character to switch classes too? I'm confused about the first part of your statement. 

 

Switching classes isn't something we can do right now anyway, so I definitely am not suggesting that. However, there should be a degree of fluidity available considering many things have changed in the 15+ years of Rose. 

 

Sorry, I feel like you're misreading me. I didn't see any class changing talked about, neither did I suggest it. Well, it's not outside the realm of possibility, and ofc PoE encourages bleedover/hybridization of classes due to the skill tree (at cost, of course) so you might've thought I meant that when I mentioned that game.

 

What I meant was that class SPECIALIZATION and more options in the class skill tree (and other options outside that) could help offer the fluidity new players and iRose returners need. I dunno, what do you guys think?

Edited by Bobbity
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If we only talk about unlimited stat resets and not about the ones that should obviously exist:

I grazed on it earlier, that the balancing of classes strongly tie (or can strongly tie) in with stat resets, depending on how the developers choose to continue with their balance of classes. There's already talk of making classes, for the most part, equal and versatile - unsure if they included stat resets with that. Also, the more distinct a class becomes the less do you need stat resets. If the classes are clear from the beginning "This is a farming class, not for PvP" - then offering stat resets so they can PvP regularly makes little sense. Less distinct classes = more reason to offer unlimited stat resets.

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What about no cooldown but with quest-received tokens? Path of Exile uses orbs of regret, a farmable and pseudo-craftable item (currency in their barter economy) to reset a physical path through their skill tree. What about farming up tokens through quests to reset as much as you like at later convenience but costing effort in the here and now?

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11 minutes ago, Wondertje said:

If we only talk about unlimited stat resets and not about the ones that should obviously exist:

I grazed on it earlier, that the balancing of classes strongly tie (or can strongly tie) in with stat resets, depending on how the developers choose to continue with their balance of classes. There's already talk of making classes, for the most part, equal and versatile - unsure if they included stat resets with that. Also, the more distinct a class becomes the less do you need stat resets. If the classes are clear from the beginning "This is a farming class, not for PvP" - then offering stat resets so they can PvP regularly makes little sense. Less distinct classes = more reason to offer unlimited stat resets.

So because it's a "Farming Class" means it can't or shouldn't be in PvP?

Min-Maxing is also a thing. You're not always going to have the most optimal gear. You get something perfect, now you can reshuffle your stats accordingly to better utilize your class. Didn't plan out your stats and class that far ahead? Oh, too bad. Might as well reroll.

 

4 minutes ago, OwlchemistVile said:

Again. People are complicating a very simple solution.

Remove the friction, make it available, unlimited use, respectable cooldown, or no cooldown with a reasonable cost, and be done with it.
It's not rocket science. 

Pretty much this.

If you don't want to use it, don't.

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2 hours ago, OwlchemistVile said:

Unlimited. Free. Maybe a 10-30minute cooldown per use. 
Adjusting your build to participate in content is fundamental in every game. 
Asking players to level 3 characters just so they can do Dungeons, Farming, or PvP is nonsensical and an antique / archaic way of looking at it. 

Once again, it's nostalgia limiting scope of vision. Stop making compromises because we never had resets and just ask for what everyone really wants. Respectable, free resets within reason, that allow 1 player character, to do all forms of content with minor adjustments on reasonable cooldowns. 

none of this needing to have a PvP loadout, and PvE loadout, with level specific resets and or paid tradable/non-tradable reset, like. Just stop complicating it. 

I like this idea even if it is a longer time limit like once every 24hrs or something 

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3 minutes ago, Ilsalay said:

So because it's a "Farming Class" means it can't or shouldn't be in PvP?

Min-Maxing is also a thing. You're not always going to have the most optimal gear. You get something perfect, now you can reshuffle your stats accordingly to better utilize your class. Didn't plan out your stats and class that far ahead? Oh, too bad. Might as well reroll.

 

Pretty much this.

If you don't want to use it, don't.

I reckon with enough options we'll see use for 'farmers' in PvP. Definitely won't be the same use as classes / toons specifically hard-geared for mainstream PvP. This all ties back into making classes more of what they already are with more flexibility and also more thematic.

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7 minutes ago, Ilsalay said:

So because it's a "Farming Class" means it can't or shouldn't be in PvP?

That's not really the question, but that would be up to the developers.

People are failing to see the big picture here, the entire ecosystem of classes, skills, gamestyles and stats. People are honing in on one little detail in a big environment, blind to what changes to it might mean to the rest of the game. Stat resets are not as simple minded as a flick of the switch. At the very least a good developer has to entertain the thought of what it might mean and how it might affect the game - wouldn't be a good developer otherwise. And I have a belief that the team here are good developers.

I'm absolutely certain they can come up with a good middle ground. There are people on the development team who are more iROSE leaning, and some who are more EVO leaning - they'll figure it out.

Edited by Wondertje
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They are. we had events in ROSE NA 2-4 times a year where you had an unlimited use Stat, Skill and Unique Skill reset. The only thing it did, was make the players wildly grateful to finally adjust builds they'd been stuck with for months, and finally try something new and fresh. This existed, for several years. 

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2 minutes ago, Wondertje said:

That's not really the question, but that would be up to the developers.

People are failing to see the big picture here, the entire ecosystem of classes, skills, gamestyles and stats. People are honing in on one little detail in a big environment, blind to what changes to it might mean to the rest of the game. Stat resets are not as simple minded as a flick of the switch. At the very least a good developer has to entertain the thought of what it might mean and how it might affect the game - wouldn't be a good developer otherwise. And I have a belief that the team here are good developers.

I'm absolutely certain they can come up with a good middle ground. There are people on the development team who are more iROSE leaning, and some who are more EVO leaning - they'll figure it out.

The thing is, I can also say you're failing to see the big picture here. 

Of course we're honing in on some little details here because it's these aspects that have made the game fall off the radar. People were tired of it.. still tired of it and I've already said my peace regarding it. The way you are detailing everything is it'll collapse the game if they offer these resets when that is absolutely not the case. Stat resets are as simple as a flick of the switch. The mechanic is already in game via an NPC in Zant.. all that is needed is a switch from 1 to whatever number. Done. Nothing in the game will break, I promise. But this direction should absolutely be considered to keep players active in this game. Its your character and you should be able to do what you want to your character. 

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1 minute ago, Avatar said:

The thing is, I can also say you're failing to see the big picture here. 

Of course we're honing in on some little details here because it's these aspects that have made the game fall off the radar. People were tired of it.. still tired of it and I've already said my peace regarding it. The way you are detailing everything is it'll collapse the game if they offer these resets when that is absolutely not the case. Stat resets are as simple as a flick of the switch. The mechanic is already in game via an NPC in Zant.. all that is needed is a switch from 1 to whatever number. Done. Nothing in the game will break, I promise. But this direction should absolutely be considered to keep players active in this game. Its your character and you should be able to do what you want to your character. 

It could have implications on a lot of things, most importantly the economy. They're making changes to the game to make sure it has an economy that will withstand the test of time, and yet people don't see how giving people unlimited access to all aspects of the game at any given time with a single unlimited character can have an affect on the things around it. I'm not saying it will have, I'm saying it might have and that it needs to be considered. Ultimately, the developers will read this and they will consider it. If they deem either direction, for or against, I will take it because I trust their judgement. I will still not agree with it from an ethical point of view, but that's less important to me. If it doesn't affect the game adversely I can play a game that's fun even if it doesn't perfectly align with my opinions on what a game should be - I don't need perfect.

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1 minute ago, Wondertje said:

It could have implications on a lot of things, most importantly the economy. They're making changes to the game to make sure it has an economy that will withstand the test of time, and yet people don't see how giving people unlimited access to all aspects of the game at any given time with a single unlimited character can have an affect on the things around it. I'm not saying it will have, I'm saying it might have and that it needs to be considered. Ultimately, the developers will read this and they will consider it. If they deem either direction, for or against, I will take it because I trust their judgement. I will still not agree with it from an ethical point of view, but that's less important to me. If it doesn't affect the game adversely I can play a game that's fun even if it doesn't perfectly align with my opinions on what a game should be - I don't need perfect.

Why is it that you believe that a stat reset will have negative implications on an economy? 

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The economy isn't an argument. A few years in, many people had multiple characters for many functions [because you couldn't reset] and effectively achieved what we're asking for now. The ability to participate in all content, with less friction. In fact, not needing alts for everything increases the likelihood of involving more people in activities as there's lower odds anyone is running a group of their own alts. 

After all, why run 5 characters in a party just to do all content, when you could level 1 character with 4 other people and have a good time, maybe make friends, and participate in all content anyway. 

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How I see it is, we don't want resets trivializing the game - and that's easily managed with making classes distinctive and encouraging masteries/specializations, implementing truly unique skills and weapons (as in, ONE ONLY like in Lords of Magic), having knowledgeable players as mentors etc. That's not the same as trivial resets ingame, which is also managable  through reset cooldowns or, IMO better yet, quest tokens. Even a noob could farm up tokens for a reset this way. Avatar is right that the game won't break, although some classes could definitely benefit more than others.

 

A short aside: Imagine a dungeon where 3 paths exist for progression, one can only be accessed by a mechanism triggerable by a character with super-high cast/attack range that deals a higher than threshold value fire damage per second. Now, imagine your party actually has such a character, a pyromage specialized in pure fire damage and boosted with cast range passives and/or gems. The other paths are equally valid but offer different ways to progress (maybe easier for parties lacking a cleric / offers substantially more of one drop at the expense of virtual absence of the rest etc.) This pyromage might be a total glass cannon that can cast Explosion once a day but is looked after by their party specifically for their utility in this dungeon in particular. Having more and more distinct options enables that sort of gameplay.   

Edited by Bobbity
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8 minutes ago, OwlchemistVile said:

The economy isn't an argument. A few years in, many people had multiple characters for many functions [because you couldn't reset] and effectively achieved what we're asking for now. The ability to participate in all content, with less friction. In fact, not needing alts for everything increases the likelihood of involving more people in activities as there's lower odds anyone is running a group of their own alts. 

After all, why run 5 characters in a party just to do all content, when you could level 1 character with 4 other people and have a good time, maybe make friends, and participate in all content anyway. 

Locking the resets behind the IM was definitely one of the factors at the root of many issues at NA including the need to create a lot of different toons.  It also had an effect on the economy since you could sell those items for a ton of zulie.  I really don't understand how making resets more available would affect the economy in a negative way. There are still job classes so it's not like you can reset your hawker to become a soldier lol.   All it would do is give players (both new and old) a chance to figure out what build works best for them so they can enjoy the game and feel like the grind is not wasted. 

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11 minutes ago, HoneyBuns said:

Locking the resets behind the IM was definitely one of the factors at the root of many issues at NA including the need to create a lot of different toons.  It also had an effect on the economy since you could sell those items for a ton of zulie.  I really don't understand how making resets more available would affect the economy in a negative way. There are still job classes so it's not like you can reset your hawker to become a soldier lol.   All it would do is give players (both new and old) a chance to figure out what build works best for them so they can enjoy the game and feel like the grind is not wasted. 

Precisely.

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My personal stance, once they figure out the economy, flat fee for every stat reset which makes it "one" of the money sinks to put money into a black hole. I honestly believe there should be multiple money sinks aka black holes to keep the economy in check. The biggest issues with player run economies is no money sinks. And no way to stabilize prices. There has to be a way to normalize prices of goods so they dont get hyper inflated. Just thinking back to the warp portal days and prices, absolutely ridiculous. The only people that had insane gear/loot were the best guilds out there. The rest were left to suffer especially people who were casual, single levelers, or small teams that didn't play often. Even in 3rd party clients, prices have been hyper inflated. The only time I saw legit prices was way back during initial launch when the game cost 15/m to play. Not long after the game went free to play and pay to win took over and prices hyper inflated.... so it really all depends on what they change and how it feels.

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