enhancements ideas for cleric Suggestions

[rOsinante]

my idea for cleric ..

how about make cleric a debuff kind of support

something that we need in a party and can be a main character to play something spammable like "DEF down, slow, root(vines that explodes in every hit kinda like this guy's skill https://log-horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Shiroe)  , curse(DPS), burn or make enemy target vulnerable for a few seconds that will make dps deal more damage and heals can that can be offensive if used against enemy(Demon types)  

this will be a fun char for me at least.. 

[Avatar]

These are skills that the Mage class already possess. 

[Zeror]

21 minutes ago, Avatar said:

These are skills that the Mage class already possess. 

Maybe those skills needs to be converted to Muse 2nd Job skills instead so both Mage and Cleric can get them.

[Avatar]

5 hours ago, Zeror said:

Maybe those skills needs to be converted to Muse 2nd Job skills instead so both Mage and Cleric can get them.

No?

[Bobbity]

I haven't seen OP respond thus far. @Zeror  I'd be interested to know why you want crowd control skills (especially snares and slows) to be shared among both Muse 2nd classes. I don't remember such a thing having been done ever. The closest instance was the Terror Knight / Dread Knight skills of Artisan and Bourg. Wouldn't that dilute the purpose of each class? Even a bourg has to sacrifice advanced crafting to ascend in the way of DPS. (Honestly, we should improve the AOE attack of bourgs; just their normal launcher attack should deliver a 1.5-2m area effect.)

Additionally, almost (?) every class has some sort of DEF down skill, simply applied differently. If someone with access to the current/last NA version's skill tree could set up access to a little skill planner site like this or this it'd be much appreciated. I remember we used to have so many resources developed and offered up by passionate community members. I miss that. 

 

Anyway, on topic. Curses are a decent match for clerics and mages, so I understand wanting to share them among both Muse classes. We could apply them differently, though. The problem is mages already have the equivalent of basic curses. Anything more advanced than that is heading towards Path of Exile territory and impacts how we see and play the game as a whole. Curses on clerics could be passive or consume mana 'passively' per use. I'll explain with a prototype:

 

Curse: Untouchable

"The path of the cleric is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil."

Toggleable. Autocast. Slows attacking enemies for 4 seconds by 70/90/110/130/150 of their attack speed and 40% of their move speed. Enemies within 2 meters of the attackers are slowed by 30% instead.

 

Curse: Hand of Fate

"Mouths have they but speak not, eyes have they, but they see not."

Toggleable. Autocast. Enemy units within 20 meters of the cleric are afflicted with loss of accuracy and 10/15/30/45/60% chance to fail at casting spells, suffering a moment of silence and taking 100% of their mana spent as damage. Chance to silence decreases with level of devotion. Consumes 1% devotion per second.

 

Curse: Straight Path

"The righteousness of the blameless makes their paths straight, but the wicked are brought down by their own wickedness."

Toggleable. Autocast. Deals 0.8/1/1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2x damage received to all attackers, consuming 1/1.5/2/2.5/3% devotion per attack. Increases move speed by 40% for 4 seconds on damage taken. 

(In the above examples a slightly different casting resource than mana is posited, namely devotion, with a number of mechanics assumed to increase and affect it. I might make a suggestion based on this later.)

 

So, the above are only technically curses - they're effectively autocast passives using a different resource than mana. Mages freely use mana for elemental magic but have poor ability at healing. It only makes sense that mana is most potent in the hands of a cleric. However, to avoid clerics being OP tanks/offtanks the skills shown above use a more finite resource that cannot be refilled with blue pots.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Bobbity
Left out some words again, sigh.

[RoseOnPlayer]

Crowd controls should be specialty of Mages and Knights. Clerics should be heals and buffs.

ROSE is a very old game, but I feel like it can adopt to modern class systems (usually found in MOBAs).

Soldiers are fighters. They deal good amount of damage but can sustain themselves defensively.

Knights are tanks. They initiate team fights, absorbs damage especially strong skills, and protects members from utility abilities. One form of this utility is crowd control as tank's way of peeling of attackers from DPS classes.

Mages are casters. They either deal burst damage or AoE damage and mastered in crowd control to protect themselves as they lack mobility.

Clerics are supports/enhancers/healers. They specialized healing and protecting through defensive buffs and can enhance ally's damage through offensive buffs.

Raiders are assassins. The thing with assassins is that they can focus to kill a target and move out of battle easily. In modern class systems, assassins deal burst single target damage while raiders deal continuous basic attack damage. Although there are still notable assassins (Master Yi, Zilong, etc) that relies on basic attack, so raiders are still good as they are.

Scouts and Bourgeois can fall into the marksman class. They are ranged damage dealers with strong basic attack and ability damage.

Scouts can be assassin-type marksman, focuses on fast attacks and can move out of battle with their mobility. Scout can be the best role for kiting, or a kiting DPS/marksman.

On the other hand, since Bourgeois lacks mobility, they can be considered as glass cannon DPS. Lacks mobility and a little bit medium speed attacker with strong critical damage. Might not be able to kite well but can kill faster than Scouts. Bourgeois can be divided into fighter-type marksman (canon) with strong critical damage and defensive capabilities and sustain, and pure DPS marksman (gun) with faster attacks and frequent critical hits.

Artisan can be a hybrid role, a support and DPS. Support in a sense that they provide strong weapons for allies. Battle Artisans and Battle Clerics can be similar roles.

Edited September 18, 2022 by RoseOnPlayer

[Wondertje]

8 hours ago, RoseOnPlayer said:

Clerics are supports/enhancers/healers. They specialized healing and protecting through defensive buffs and can enhance ally's damage through offensive buffs.

They're already removing offensive buffs from clerics so unfortunately we won't be able to make any real support clerics other than heal slaves (which may or may not be useless unless they change them from how they were during the stress test).

[RoseOnPlayer]

7 hours ago, Wondertje said:

They're already removing offensive buffs from clerics so unfortunately we won't be able to make any real support clerics other than heal slaves (which may or may not be useless unless they change them from how they were during the stress test).

I understand and I agree that the changes for cleric was to prevent the "buff slave" meta. The reason why buff slaves exist is because of the long duration and highly efficient cleric buffs. So, splitting these long duration buffs (15 minutes) to other classes is the right way BUT cleric must still have buffs.

These are my proposed buff mechanics:
1. Sustainable buffs are stackable and maintained to be significant enough. These are short duration buffs (10 to 15 seconds) with short cooldown (3 to 10 seconds) that can stack up to 3 times for maximum effect. These buffs is used interactively and must be maintained to give strong effect.
2. Strong buffs are buffs of significant strength. These are very short duration buffs (3 to 5 seconds) with medium cooldown (15 to 30 seconds). These buffs are used strategically and interactively for well-timed situations.

[Bobbity]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:16 PM, Wondertje said:

They're already removing offensive buffs from clerics so unfortunately we won't be able to make any real support clerics other than heal slaves (which may or may not be useless unless they change them from how they were during the stress test).

I won't assume that anything's permanent at this point. I still don't feel that the devs have moved us from the old meta as yet, so this is still something we can brainstorm. My view is, choice is king. We need a neutral position in the cleric/muse skill tree so that those who want to enslave their clerics can do so, and those who want more active play can enjoy that too. They just need to spend the skill points and/or spend the time doing quests that enable their choice. Buffbot/healbot shouldn't simply be the default. HOWEVER, there has to be a price more than just skill points / opportunity cost. 

 

Anyway, stackable party buffs (and warlock-type curses) are something we haven't explored yet. We've had stackable proc-based self-buffs like Wand Weaving / Cleric's Intensity and its analogues in other classes, though. Let's keep brainstorming this into deeper detail.

 

[Fezzy]

On 9/19/2022 at 4:16 AM, RoseOnPlayer said:

I understand and I agree that the changes for cleric was to prevent the "buff slave" meta. The reason why buff slaves exist is because of the long duration and highly efficient cleric buffs. So, splitting these long duration buffs (15 minutes) to other classes is the right way BUT cleric must still have buffs.

These are my proposed buff mechanics:
1. Sustainable buffs are stackable and maintained to be significant enough. These are short duration buffs (10 to 15 seconds) with short cooldown (3 to 10 seconds) that can stack up to 3 times for maximum effect. These buffs is used interactively and must be maintained to give strong effect.
2. Strong buffs are buffs of significant strength. These are very short duration buffs (3 to 5 seconds) with medium cooldown (15 to 30 seconds). These buffs are used strategically and interactively for well-timed situations.

Agree. If this rose version makes it that you have to have a second account with a cleric as a buff slave im not going to play it. Your ideas are good. 

[RoseOnPlayer]

5 hours ago, Fezzy said:

Agree. If this rose version makes it that you have to have a second account with a cleric as a buff slave im not going to play it. Your ideas are good. 

I actually wrote this in suggestion forums based on naROSE skill tree.