miscellaneous My Class overhaul idea and Crafting overhaul idea.

[namcost]

Okay, so to start off, I did post in your discord and also on a youtube comment. I was directed here. I apologize for bad formatting and rambling. Passion is hard to break down into simple means for me. So here we go!

Classes, a complete overhaul to refresh the game and set it apart from other rose variants. Firstly "visitor" would become "villager." I mean you aren't just "visiting" the world when the Aura Fairy teleports you there, you become a "resident" which you could also change Visitor into Resident. Maybe the "welcome to the game quest" which helps new players learn the game turns you into a "villager" or "resident" thus immediately grants you "resident" or "villager" title/class. You should in my mind be able to play through the entire game without ever choosing another class. Sort of a "hardcore" mode. But then you would have your four main "first job" classes, which would be changed slightly.... The upcoming changes also had a bit (in my mind) to do with how the developers stated they wanted to make the Muse MORE than just a "sit there and buff" class.... these changes help with that for all class sets....

Instead of Soldier, Hawker, Muse, and Dealer, you would have Warrior, Thief, Mage and Dealer (couldn't think of another name for dealer). Each of these would then have FOUR subclasses (aka 2nd tier) that you could upgrade into. Again this would help set the game apart from other Rose Clients allowing players to have more variety and gameplay style/choices.

The Warrior (ex Soldier) would then be able to upgrade into Knight, Paladin, Champion, and Samurai. The Paladin would be a ideal for more solo minded players, as you would have moderate damage, moderate defense, and light healing. Paladin weapons would focus on single hand weapons with a shield. But they would be able to use wands and shields to slightly buff their mana/heal power, but still not as good healing as the Cleric from the mage category. The Knight would be your typical tank, with high defense and moderate damage who focuses on shield and single handed melee weapons with lots of shield skills like bash or taunt.... Champion is your typical "all rounder" class which has moderate defense, moderate damage, and can use ANY melee weapon in the game, a great "introduction" into the world of melee. The Samurai would then become your "sword user" who could uses swords, spears, and katanas (new weapon set) and have special skill sets to go with each of their weapon choices. The Samurai would have high damage and low defense. This gives the player more choice and more segregation between classes in 2nd tier. Helps let players feels more "unique".

The Thief (ex Hawker) would then be able to upgrade into Assassin, Ranger, Swashbuckler, and Bard. The Assassin would get new a new weapon aka DAGGER which can be equipped into both hand slots (typically sword/shield or wand/other). The Assassin would also be able to use the hawker "dual sword" and "katar" based weapons. The class breakdown would have two subsets, direct and indirect. Indirect focuses on going invisible and attacking from the shadows while direct would focus on straight on damage. Assassins would have high damage and low defense. Then Ranger would be your typical bow/crossbow class. Who can also call "animals" to aide them in the form of pets. So you could call a hawk, or a wolf, and maybe two other types of creatures. The hawk is more about attack speed low damage, the wolf is more about damage and moderate attack speed, and maybe a turtle that acts as a tank that has high defense but low attack. Giving the Ranger more "range" in how its player (puns, lmao right?). Then you have Swashbuckler, this would be your moderate damage moderate defense character. Passive skills to boost "parry" chance to block incoming attacks. High attack speed and moderate damage. Bard would be the buff class for this range of characters. You would need to add in weapons like guitar, drums, etc. And the bard can either play an attack role or buff role. The buff role would be an AOE where as long as the bard is playing his instrument, teammates within range would gain a buff to certain skills. Which would be cool! They may also have light AOE healing with their songs as well, not as much healing as Cleric or Paladin but can heal more than 1 player at a time which would be dope. Sort of a moving Muse Bonfire but less healing.

The Wizard (ex Muse) would then be able to upgrade into Cleric, Mage, Mystic, and Necromancer. The Cleric has a high affinity for healing both direct and passive. The bonfire skill will remain as a "static" placement (can't be moved until the timer runs out, aka think about where you place it) and of course high power single target healing. Cleric would also be the opposite of the Paladin, so low defense, moderate damage (equal to Paladin) and high healing (where as Paladin was moderate defense, moderate damage, and low healing). Mage would be your typical "elemental" magic user, fire, ice, lightening, earth.... with skills in each category. Would have both high damage direct attacks and low/moderate damage AOE attacks. Then you have Mystic. This is your "arcane" damage dealer. Basically all attacks are "arcane" damage like magic missile from classic D&D.... And then Necromancer, being able to summon skeletons, golums, bats, etc to fight by your side. Maybe have a system slightly like Diablo2 where you have "skeleton" skill then a "skeleton passive" that you can put points into. So Skeleton summon gives you 1-2-3-4 skeletons to summon, each tier giving you either more health, last longer, or more skeletons (will need balancing but still its an example) and then the passive skill will boost damage output of your summons or defense of your summons. So skeleton attack and skeleton defense maybe skeleton attack speed. Making the necromancer have skill point sinks to balance it out with other classes.

Down the road you could have "unlockable classes" that are "hidden" like "death knight" or "monk" which you can learn by playing through the game and completing some NPC's quest (when you are high enough level to do said quests). This would make the game more dynamic and fun in my opinion. More options helps set your playstyle apart from other players. Nothing worse than seeing 1000's of the same class choice playing exactly the same way, using the same exact skills. I think back to world of warcraft, where every single warrior plays exactly the same, wearing the same gear, same skills, same playstyle. That's lame to me. I love choice.

Now onto CRAFTING. As I remember, the OG crafting you could use ANY material you wanted. So making a noob sword might take metal and wood. Using higher end materials only meant you had a higher chance of success. I think it would be BETTER if using higher end materials meant you got a final product with better stats. For example, maybe the starter wooden sword. 7 attack power, fast +3 attack speed, and hitting rate in the high 20's. Using "end game materials" might result in 13 attack power, fast +3 attack speed, and hitting rate in the high 30's. This would obviously need balancing like anything else. But it would help set the game apart from other rose clients. this also helps close the gap between UNIQUE item drops and normal weapon gear you can buy from NPC's. This helps the Player vs Player interaction like buying/selling or communicating on crafting for guilds or friends. This way, there is a reason to buy gear made from players vs looking only for unique gear.... From what I remember, the gatling gun unique drop would do about 100 damage and its only requirement was 59 strength? (if I remember correctly). Doing 100 damage with a normal launcher would be akin to a level 50-60 launcher!!! And you could use the noob launcher at like level 15-16 (if I remember correctly, aka putting 60 points directly into strength at every level). So from 15/16 to about level 60 you had an OP weapon that lets you level up faster than anyone else. I don't think that should be nerfed, but I do think craft-able items should help close the gap. If you use higher tier materials you should be able to get close to but not exactly the same kind of power on lower tier items vs unique. So if at level 15/16 you could do 100 damage with a unique, maybe the player made uniques using high tier materials for lower end weapons could get you to 75 or 80 damage. Not as much as unique, but still enough to be "worthwhile" to buy from crafters. This gives crafters a bigger role in the economy other than "make wings" or "make mask/glasses" which I remember being the meme. "if you want to make money, make wings and face items".

I honestly think this will help set Rose apart from other iterations and older versions. This I believe could bring a new breath of life to the game, while still offering that classic Rose feeling and gameplay. The best parts of rose online? being able to pick your own stat points and skill points. Having ACTUAL choice. I would love to see skill tree's big enough that you can't learn everything. This way you have to choose which skills you prefer to use as a player. Player one might focus on AOE while another focuses on Direct Damage, another might want to do high end healing. This way players have more choice and thus more variation in groups and parties as to how the game would be attacked and overcome. Rose is a great game. even if you DONT use my idea's. I know rose will still be fun to play.

[Wondertje]

I can tell you've got a lot of ideas, but personally (I'm not a developer), these are more suitable for the development of a new game, rather than as an addition/changelog to ROSE. Even if diversifying from other ROSE servers/versions was the goal, the developers have been very clear with the fact that they this is the originial and will be considered and viewed as such, and they still want to stay in the spirit of what ROSE is and always has been. Overhauling the fundamentals of a game is difficult at best, detrimental at worst.

The crafting idea sounds more in line with the game as it is. Trying to bridge the gap between "I buy from NPC because I'm low level" and "I farm for uniques/end-game because I'm high level" with something Artisan related is definitely a good idea. I think they've made some changes already, but I'm not sure - I could be wrong about that.

[Ashura]

I saw on another p/server they are trying to create 3rd job systems but i am not too sure it will work because just naming a new class and creating new skill sets for said class is a whole different aspect. I appreciate that you are looking out for the longevity and playability of the game, something like this will have to be done further down the line and probably on a newer game engine.

[namcost]

On 7/23/2022 at 7:05 PM, Wondertje said:

I can tell you've got a lot of ideas, but personally (I'm not a developer), these are more suitable for the development of a new game, rather than as an addition/changelog to ROSE. Even if diversifying from other ROSE servers/versions was the goal, the developers have been very clear with the fact that they this is the original and will be considered and viewed as such, and they still want to stay in the spirit of what ROSE is and always has been. Overhauling the fundamentals of a game is difficult at best, detrimental at worst.

The crafting idea sounds more in line with the game as it is. Trying to bridge the gap between "I buy from NPC because I'm low level" and "I farm for uniques/end-game because I'm high level" with something Artisan related is definitely a good idea. I think they've made some changes already, but I'm not sure - I could be wrong about that.

The idea doesn't need a new game or game engine. the main changes are just "name" changes which is literally just "text".... you could just say "don't change the names, only add new subclasses" and it still works. The name changes were just to help revitalize the game.... its not required. Adding more subclasses gives more player choice. You can still play your usual classes, but now you have access to TWO MORE subclasses per main class. So instead of 1-4-2 (visitor-1st job-2nd job) you would have 1-4-4 (visitor-1st job-2nd job). All you are doing is ADDING onto what is already there. Its not changing anything. SOME skills might slightly change but not enough that it wont feel like rose. Keeping the game 100% "exactly the way it was" means after the nostalgic players get their fill, the game will die off. Many 3rd party rose clients are only alive due to pay to win via their own item mall/market. If that market didn't exist, which is what is going to happen with this legit version backed by Gravity, then its not going to succeed purely on nostalgia. And without pay to win, people are less likely to spend money on the game. All businesses need to think long term and profit wise even though they should also be focusing on making a fun game. While I can agree some developers focus too much on money and then no one plays the game due to aspects like pay to win, you also have games that never think about monetary side of things and end up shutting down due to lack of funding.... Gravity isn't going to pay Rednem to make this game. They have to release the game and make their own profits, probably paying kickback to Gravity (unless their contract states they pay Gravity outright and get the rights to all profits but I don't know what they chose to do).

End of the day, unless they expand the game and plan for the future, the game wont last. I have been playing Rose since back when it literally cost $15/month to play aka its original launch. I was there when it went free to play, I was there when it switched hosts from triggersoft to gravity. I was there when gravity changed their name to warp portal, and I was there when they shut down the game. Minus the supposed horrific coding that took place from triggersoft and eventually adding to it over time, there are reasons why Gravity felt it wasn't worth keeping the game going. Just bringing it back isn't enough.... we need expansion. I know Rednem talked about updating the game, adding the new planets, etc. But will that alone be enough to keep the game going? Not to mention the 3rd party servers out there.... what will pull people from those versions to play the legit version other than "officially supported by Gravity/Warpportal".... they already have high level characters and dont want to switch to this version when they can keep playing theirs.

Just being honest. Adding in two new subclasses for 2nd job tier isn't going to ruin the game, it just adds more player choice. If you don't like the name changes, then keep the OG names and just add two subclasses for 2nd tier.

soldier then turns into knight and champion. okay now add samurai and paladin.

muse turns into cleric and mage, now add necromancer and wizard.

hawker turns into scout and raider. now add swashbuckler and bard.

dealer turns into bourgeois and artisan, now add gambler and sniper. 

its just ADDING the the game. its not erasing what was and creating something entirely new.

[namcost]

18 hours ago, Ashura said:

I saw on another p/server they are trying to create 3rd job systems but i am not too sure it will work because just naming a new class and creating new skill sets for said class is a whole different aspect. I appreciate that you are looking out for the longevity and playability of the game, something like this will have to be done further down the line and probably on a newer game engine.

I don't think a new game engine is required. In all reality, if they were gonna switch to unreal engine, they should be doing that NOW before they waste time with the current client. Even if that means pushing back development and all of us waiting to play. Once you have your chosen engine, you stick with it. Look at ashes of creation, they chose unreal engine and then updated ASAP to unreal engine 5 because to do it later would be a catastrophe.

If Rednam are sticking to the original engine, then its ALWAYS going to stay on the original engine. Its just factual. Why spend all the time fixing code when they could just import models into unreal, remake the maps to their own liking, and go that route? Its not hard to create a loot table. Its also not hard to build a map when you already have models to work with. the only issue I see is rigging the models for movement. which any development team should be capable of. Its not like Rose was a AAA action combat game with amazing movement. It was rather basic. So rigging basic movement and matching what was before shouldn't take more than a month or so. Plus they have the original client so they should be able to data mine their own game and pull any info they need for the conversion to a new engine.

[Ashura]

On 7/25/2022 at 2:21 AM, namcost said:

I don't think a new game engine is required. In all reality, if they were gonna switch to unreal engine, they should be doing that NOW before they waste time with the current client. Even if that means pushing back development and all of us waiting to play. Once you have your chosen engine, you stick with it. Look at ashes of creation, they chose unreal engine and then updated ASAP to unreal engine 5 because to do it later would be a catastrophe.

If Rednam are sticking to the original engine, then its ALWAYS going to stay on the original engine. Its just factual. Why spend all the time fixing code when they could just import models into unreal, remake the maps to their own liking, and go that route? Its not hard to create a loot table. Its also not hard to build a map when you already have models to work with. the only issue I see is rigging the models for movement. which any development team should be capable of. Its not like Rose was a AAA action combat game with amazing movement. It was rather basic. So rigging basic movement and matching what was before shouldn't take more than a month or so. Plus they have the original client so they should be able to data mine their own game and pull any info they need for the conversion to a new engine.

You just said that they are on UE so upgradibg to UE5 shouldn't be a problem for them.

The devs already said that the current code of the game is really crap and that they have to sort it out before making any real changes to game engine and that they will stay on the Znzin engine.

This is a quote from Garnet on discord: "The problem is not that we don't have an Unreal Engine version, the problem is if you want us to make it 100% complete the game will be released in 3 years For now we'r going for improving znzin and the current code so we can release the game this year, but we explore others solutions (and we have other solutions) at the same time As munch as i would like an engine upgrade for a lot of reasons, it's not what will make the game incredibly better right now unfortunally."

[namcost]

20 hours ago, Ashura said:

You just said that they are on UE so upgradibg to UE5 shouldn't be a problem for them.

The devs already said that the current code of the game is really crap and that they have to sort it out before making any real changes to game engine and that they will stay on the Znzin engine.

This is a quote from Garnet on discord: "The problem is not that we don't have an Unreal Engine version, the problem is if you want us to make it 100% complete the game will be released in 3 years For now we'r going for improving znzin and the current code so we can release the game this year, but we explore others solutions (and we have other solutions) at the same time As munch as i would like an engine upgrade for a lot of reasons, it's not what will make the game incredibly better right now unfortunally."

3 years sounds about right to remake the game in unreal engine. the only thing they can do is import models and go from there. however my point was, if they aren't working on unreal now and instead focused on code fixes on the original engine, then more than likely the game will never port to unreal engine. if it would take them 3 years estimated by your quote to get an unreal version going, focusing all their time and effort on the old engine NOW means that 3 year mark is now pushed even further back.

adding new classes on the original engine isn't that hard. you are just adding code. so adding 2 new 2nd tier jobs classes to each 1st tier wouldn't be hard. again not changing the game but expanding it. like an expansion.

they cant copy/past code from the old engine to unreal. it wont work. they will have to write their own code for the most part. some things MIGHT work via copy/paste but most is going to have to be re-written. thankfully unreal has ways of simplifying things.

anyway. they could easily had new content to keep the game fresh.

[Wondertje]

On 7/25/2022 at 2:15 AM, namcost said:

The idea doesn't need a new game or game engine. the main changes are just "name" changes which is literally just "text".... you could just say "don't change the names, only add new subclasses" and it still works. The name changes were just to help revitalize the game.... its not required.

You were the one who initially called it a complete overhaul and the way you described it was a fundamental change, bottom up. I do agree that diversifying is important and 3rd job classes could definitely be a thing further ahead in development. But unless they have ideas for it already, it will take immense focus to build skill trees, balance all classes with the new ones and have to decide what the actual purpose of the classes will be. Adding 3rd job classes as the game looks right now makes no sense, the game isn't developed enough at higher levels for there to be a point in doing so. It will need an overhaul of areas, new levels, new job gear, etc. It's a major undertaking and shouldn't be done lightly.

[Ashura]

To top it all off, the game was not even half way completed when Gravity stopped releasing new content. Lets say Rednim has the "full version" of the game they will still have to hire/employ artists and writers to complete the story which for a small development team is something they are working towards and not that easy to do with their budget and only a handful might be working full time on the game game.

Gravity is not involved in this project the devs are all on their own so everything has to come out of their own pocket and i hope it remains that way because i do not want Gravity anywhere near this project going on their track record to date.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Ashura