What's your opinion with the direction we're going?

[Chocaholic]

Max levels ruining the spots for the low levels causes the game to halt, low levels will simply drop out as there is no challenge for them. This is a game for the community, not the select few thelat were able to reach max lvl quickly. With no new players the game is dead. 

[GodOfEntity]

1 hour ago, Kayuchi said:

Thats always how ROSE have been, and nobody had any problems with that. It indeed created a sub market for farmers like fietsopa said. And gave people more things to do. (Lvling alt chars).

You name arti's, but its mostly all other classes that 'farm' low lvl area's. Its just lame that a lvl 250 can even 'farm' adventures plains for example.

No, rose wasn't always like that. There was a serious issue with trying to farm matts before, and the only way to do it was to buy an item mall item that gave you the ability to farm that mob(Or running NO EXP scrolls and gearing out several different lowbies to farm different matts) . The best thing the pay to play Gods ever did, was removing that item from needing to be used to farm with high level chars. 
 

 

40 minutes ago, Chocaholic said:

Max levels ruining the spots for the low levels causes the game to halt, low levels will simply drop out as there is no challenge for them. This is a game for the community, not the select few thelat were able to reach max lvl quickly. With no new players the game is dead. 

As I've mentioned before, high levels shouldn't be ruining leveling spots. If they are, arguably, it is a bannable offense. - Try to farm in a slightly different location, and if they follow you, proceed to warn them. If they continue to KS, then it's a reportable and banable offense. 

Research into this has also shown the opposite, players are MORE LIKELY to stay when they see an active player base. Those players that are farming, are likely actually there! talk to them, say hi to them, learn about the game from them, ask them what they're farming, what's good to loot there, ect. Instead of just, making something that is one of the greatest things about this game, into a problem, when it really genuinely is, more than a none issue.  The ability to farm matts at a high level is one of the greatest features of this game, and the removal of this feature would be much worse than any of you realize. Please try to make a max level artisian, and then try to craft everything you can craft, when you realize the matts you need for each thing, you will realize why it is so important to be able to farm with your max level chars. I promise you guys! This isn't a bad thing. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by GodOfEntity

[Fietsopa]

49 minutes ago, GodOfEntity said:

No, rose wasn't always like that. There was a serious issue with trying to farm matts before, and the only way to do it was to buy an item mall item that gave you the ability to farm that mob(Or running NO EXP scrolls and gearing out several different lowbies to farm different matts) . The best thing the pay to play Gods ever did, was removing that item from needing to be used to farm with high level chars. 

The naROSE devs created a problem through lazy and objectively bad game design (they didn't deliver the farming content needed for high levels), then they refused to solve it from game design standpoint (by failing to deliver the needed content), and, instead, they just came up with a lazy solution (let everyone be able to farm everything with 1 character), which goes completely against the core principles of ROSE as a game and its economy (specifically where and how new players fit in that economy vs old players), and then they sold that solution to people. Create the problem and sell the solution. It's one of the oldest tricks. It's also one of the reasons naROSE failed.

The fact that the most successful private ROSE servers out there are iROSE ones, which focus precisely on farming of the type I've described, is more than enough proof of what the actual remaining player base values and wants. 

Letting max level characters farm in competition to new player characters in low level zones without any level scaling mechanics in place makes farming frustrating for new players and, therefore, pretty much dead on arrival. 

[GodOfEntity]

8 hours ago, Fietsopa said:

The naROSE devs created a problem through lazy and objectively bad game design (they didn't deliver the farming content needed for high levels), then they refused to solve it from game design standpoint (by failing to deliver the needed content), and, instead, they just came up with a lazy solution (let everyone be able to farm everything with 1 character), which goes completely against the core principles of ROSE as a game and its economy (specifically where and how new players fit in that economy vs old players), and then they sold that solution to people. Create the problem and sell the solution. It's one of the oldest tricks. It's also one of the reasons naROSE failed.

The fact that the most successful private ROSE servers out there are iROSE ones, which focus precisely on farming of the type I've described, is more than enough proof of what the actual remaining player base values and wants. 

Letting max level characters farm in competition to new player characters in low level zones without any level scaling mechanics in place makes farming frustrating for new players and, therefore, pretty much dead on arrival. 

 

The rebirth system, and this "content" you swear by, was objectively some of the worst things ever to happen to ROSE, and pservers were by design, nothing like the direction the original developers of the game wanted to see, was a major perversion of the game. Where as many Original ROSE players would refuse to play. I had a feeling that you were just a pserver lover, that didn't like the player base drop, and now you've come here to try to destroy this game. 

Farming should be more rewarding for max level chars. That is the incentive of getting to max level. To be a big, strong, farmer. Crafter, fighter. Ect. 

Of course farming vrs someone that has put in the time and effort into this game, should result in them outframing you. But this cry that they're making the game unplayable for lower level players, is laughable, and outright delusional. 

I'm not going to continue to humor someone that I see as simply trying to destroy this game for what I love. This isn't worth the argument anymore. I just hope that most people see through what you're doing, into what you're really trying to do*  

 

 

I started this game 2 months after 'launch'. It was not unplayable for me. The fact that old players are very active in new maps, made the experience a much better and far more enjoyable experience for me. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by GodOfEntity

[Kayuchi]

13 hours ago, GodOfEntity said:

 

The rebirth system, and this "content" you swear by, was objectively some of the worst things ever to happen to ROSE, and pservers were by design, nothing like the direction the original developers of the game wanted to see, was a major perversion of the game. Where as many Original ROSE players would refuse to play. I had a feeling that you were just a pserver lover, that didn't like the player base drop, and now you've come here to try to destroy this game. 

 

Thats so naive, you do know there are a few pservers that developed the game far better and further (even 5th planet) then the original ?
But thats not why we are here, this is a new server a fresh start. And me I would like to be a part of that.

Its build on the old naRose server and thats where most problems are. You assume that everything NA developed is good because they are original.

while some of there content is just lame and poor. They changed so much things, that I quistion myself if they changed it just to change it. Since some 'original' concepts of the game where far better and more simple.

Farming should be more rewarding for max level chars. That is the incentive of getting to max level. To be a big, strong, farmer. Crafter, fighter. Ect. 

Agreed, but thats why all the best drops in this game already drop at max lvl. Kinda pathetic to farm some dirties from jelly's right.

Of course farming vrs someone that has put in the time and effort into this game, should result in them outframing you. But this cry that they're making the game unplayable for lower level players, is laughable, and outright delusional. 

Actually its not, people are not nice. They farm there for themselves. Some with bots. And you're solution is to SS and ban them. The team is already busy awsering tickets. Some are unread for almost 4-5 days.

Just make it impossible to farm grey mobs. Problem fixed.

I'm not going to continue to humor someone that I see as simply trying to destroy this game for what I love. This isn't worth the argument anymore. I just hope that most people see through what you're doing, into what you're really trying to do*  

This so far is a healthy discussion, you had some good imput from another perspective. We need that aswell in these kind of topics. Just dont threat to not reply, we dont care. Or make other people look like badguys who want to destroy this server. We are not.

 

 

I started this game 2 months after 'launch'. It was not unplayable for me. The fact that old players are very active in new maps, made the experience a much better and far more enjoyable experience for me. 

This is actually a valid argument wich then dissapears.

But people make new farmers, so instead of just 'seeing' other players at new maps. They now even can party with them. Wich is way better.

[Fietsopa]

9 hours ago, GodOfEntity said:

 

The rebirth system, and this "content" you swear by, was objectively some of the worst things ever to happen to ROSE, and pservers were by design, nothing like the direction the original developers of the game wanted to see, was a major perversion of the game. Where as many Original ROSE players would refuse to play. I had a feeling that you were just a pserver lover, that didn't like the player base drop, and now you've come here to try to destroy this game. 

Farming should be more rewarding for max level chars. That is the incentive of getting to max level. To be a big, strong, farmer. Crafter, fighter. Ect. 

Of course farming vrs someone that has put in the time and effort into this game, should result in them outframing you. But this cry that they're making the game unplayable for lower level players, is laughable, and outright delusional. 

I'm not going to continue to humor someone that I see as simply trying to destroy this game for what I love. This isn't worth the argument anymore. I just hope that most people see through what you're doing, into what you're really trying to do*  

 

 

I started this game 2 months after 'launch'. It was not unplayable for me. The fact that old players are very active in new maps, made the experience a much better and far more enjoyable experience for me. 

Childish accusations and assumptions aside, I am glad you enjoy the current state of the server.

As to what is laughable and delusional, I guess time will tell who's right and who's wrong. 

One last comment from me:

"pservers were by design, nothing like the direction the original developers of the game wanted to see" - Precisely, the direction of an old legacy MMO such as ROSE should go in favour of what the players want and expect from the game in 2023, not what the original developers wanted years ago. What the original developers wanted years ago is irrelevant. What your audience wants and expects from you now is relevant. Some of that might align with what the original devs wanted, some of it might not. But if you listen to what the audience wants, you will do good.

[GodOfEntity]

Basically, the lower level matts value will drop to a value that they SHOULD be at, when that happens, and it will, not as many high levels will find value in farming it.  

There's more I can say on this matter, and maybe I will, but, I'm uh, trying to hit max, still

Edited February 12, 2023 by GodOfEntity

[Chocaholic]

23 hours ago, GodOfEntity said:

A max level shouldn't be ruining a spot, if they are, you can politely ask them to not ruin your spot. If they continue to grief you, you can report them for a possible ban. Your leveling takes priority over their farm. High levels should treat others with respect. If you're not being treated with respect from high levels, then something is wrong. 

This means you need an active crew of admins roaming the server investigating all reports. It is easier to make mobs to not drop any loot if the level cap is too high. Then there is no need for high levels farming low level fields. I do understand that there must be to keep high levels entertained, but that is what you get for leveling up too quickly.

[Aryn]

We are about two months into early acces and most of the early maps are rather empty as people are leveling through them rather quickly. I think the point you are trying to make about high levels camping lower maps and ruining the experience is not valid. I don’t really see people dedicated to farming materials at certain levels with new characters teaming up with other people as their intention is to gather materials where you usually share loot in a party while leveling.

in the meanwhile fossil island requires you to wait 5 seconds until one of your skills is cast or when an animation starts cause most people are high level now and are either farming there or leveling there as it is the only viable map to properly level/farm in which is problematic.

I do have confidence and believe the rednim team will do everything they can to improve the experience and fix the gameplay related issues now that the server is more stable.

 

I feel like the leveling experience could improve by making more places viable to level in. Now there is a certain path that you are funneled into as it is meta in terms of gaining experience. I feel like there are several ways to achieve this:

- remove all the repeatable quests and rebalance the amount of experience required/gained from monsters around the game to make it an enjoyable experience. Making it too slow makes leveling a nuisance which will turn people off and make them give up and quit. Make it too fast and people will hit endgame right away which in turn will cause people to progress through the limited endgame and make them bored / burn out from the game.

- add extra repeatable quests to other zones troughout GoG, Luna, Eldeon, Orlo which are on par with the current ones (maybe rebalance the current ones) to diversify the spots where people level. This could cause problems where it could become hard to find a party as there will be fewer people leveling and they might have problems finding eachother.

- expand on the current main questline to take you through the game at a reasonable pace where you also get enough experience to not have to grind your way through repeatables/monsters. This is the case up to a certain level which is very enjoyable. Allthough this suggestion takes away from the ‘’point.’ of ROSE which is grinding and farming. Having several different options to level would certainly speak to more different kind of people so I feel that would not hurt the game in the long run.

[Flagrant]

they keep pandering to the people who cry the loudest.

this is a death sentence for a game like this.

they completely ruined competing for drops, now the game just randomly decides who gets to loot the drop.

Ive lost drops ive done 95% of the damage and got the first/last hit and it says 'does not belong' my character wont even move toward the drop to pick it up anymore, i gotta manually click every drop i get.

[GodOfEntity]

15 hours ago, Chocaholic said:

This means you need an active crew of admins roaming the server investigating all reports. 

This is generally important to be happening, regardless. It is happening. Rednim is doing a good job with this. 

 

15 hours ago, Chocaholic said:

 I do understand that there must be to keep high levels entertained, but that is what you get for leveling up too quickly.

The thing is, low level mobs drops matts to craft low level gear, which is something, that makes great sense. The problem is, low levels are very ineffective at farming these matts, causing the costs of these matts to be extremely high. UNLESS, High levels farm it, Which lowers greatly the cost of these matts, but then also lowers the cost of the items being crafted. This results in cheaper low level items. Something that is important and healthy for the economy of ROSE.  Low levels benefit from this more than immediately meets the eye. 

 

On 2/12/2023 at 3:32 AM, Kayuchi said:

But people make new farmers, so instead of just 'seeing' other players at new maps. They now even can party with them. Wich is way better.

I mean, if the cost of the items make it worth them farming, they might make lower level chars, but likely not. Most certainly are high levels not going to farm with randoms when they're going to be spending 14mill + on gearing a farming char. 

 I don't think the people wanting high levels to not be able to farm for lower level matts are fully understanding the consequences of what they're asking. I get that maybe I have not drawn a full enough picture, but I'm trying. Sorry that I've genuinely believed there is ill intent with this outcry. 

Cost to craft will be exceedingly high,(time, effort, ect)  Most high level crafters will focus their time & energy crafting things with much higher returns/value.  As it stands now, crafting low level equipment is pretty much charity work, though, is profitable enough to be worth while. If you increase the cost of matts by making them harder to obtain. This will effect supply demand, making low level items cost amounts that low levels cannot afford to pay. Which is a far worse position than high levels being slightly annoying, using farming spots where low levels tend to level. 

People that are farming, don't want to play with people they've just met. Even in Marsh Of Ghosts, I'll try to explain to someone that is actively farming that I've spent 14mill zullies on drop gems, and I'd be a good addition to their party.  I don't blame people that are farming to not want to be playing the game in that moment with strangers. Leveling is when you're going to find people you want to be partying with, and then later be farming with because now you've got a bond with them. Seems sort of silly, but just, is that way. 

 

11 hours ago, Flagrant said:

they keep pandering to the people who cry the loudest.

this is a death sentence for a game like this.

It's very common for people to believe they know what's best, when the reality is much different. I've been very wrong myself in that regard before. This is one of the many things that killed Unreal Tournament. The devs trying to pander to everyone, this can be really, really bad. 

I think the solution, is people just trying to have the best patience they can have, why their logic is giving them the reasoning they are having. To note that people using key words like; "this is destroying the game and needs to be fixed" -- Needs to be backed up with more than just accusations for it to have any sort of truth to it. When the reality is the actual opposite. 
 

 

20 hours ago, Fietsopa said:

But if you listen to what the audience wants, you will do good.

In a world of cancel culture, and people wanting results based on high emotion and impulse reactions, rather than rationality and logic. I disagree firmly in that belief. 

 

 

 

As the cost of the matts in low level zones, continue to plumet to levels they need to drop to, you'll start to see, less and less high level accounts seeing great value in farming those low level zones. I strongly believe that as the economy balances out, that this will become, more and more of a none issue. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by GodOfEntity

[xBerry]

What are you talking about? It sounds like you are making this stuff up.
With increasing value of mats, low level players can sell them for a better price resulting in them having more money to buy equipment. Besides, in the first phase of the game you almost spend no money. Don't forget that most low level armor is found really cheap at npc's and also gets dropped easily.
The fact that high level players farm certain mats more effectively should not be an argument since they should just not be able to get drops from low level monsters. That's just silly game design with abusing power and zero challenge, which is why it has to change.

"As it stands now, crafting low level equipment is pretty much charity work, though, is profitable enough to be worth while." That's also a bit of a contradictory, don't you think? I like that you put effort in these long vague responses that make close to zero sense.

[Fietsopa]

11 minutes ago, xBerry said:

The fact that high level players farm certain mats more effectively should not be an argument since they should just not be able to get drops from low level monsters. That's just silly game design with abusing power and zero challenge, which is why it has to change.

^ This.

At this point I have no idea how much mental gymnastics are necessary to dispute that.

It's just paragraphs full of assumptions and contradictions and a complete lack of understanding of what the issue is and a fundamental misunderstanding on what level the issue should be solved. I know I'm wasting my time here but thought I'll just break down just one of these to show you.

The thing is, low level mobs drops matts to craft low level gear, which is something, that makes great sense. Not necessarily true - some low level mobs drop items that are useful for higher level players and gear as well. Also, it's not necessarily a great strategy to implement that low level drops should be useful for low level only. ROSE works best when the gameplay is developed horizontally as well as vertically. Here's why: having challenging content at lower levels that can yield something of use for higher levels connects the population and creates the necessary social and market interaction between newbies and veterans. It creates an avenue for resources to flow between these two groups, thus establishing access to the supply and demand dynamics of the economy.
It also makes sure that low level maps are populated by low level characters, so a new player is likely to level and farm alongside a similarly-leveled veteran player who might be farming. This is opposed to the current state where a newbie player exists in the realm of much higher level characters just blitzing through the mobs while that new player struggles, possibly competing for the same mobs (fundamentally a good thing!), which the newbie cannot respond to in any material way and has almost no chance (objectively a bad thing!). This is bad game design. 

The problem is, low levels are very ineffective at farming these matts, causing the costs of these matts to be extremely high. No, the problem is not that. The problem is that the current system makes them ineffective. It allows high level players to farm these mobs, so of course lower level players are going to be comparatively inefficient. This is obvious and it is caused by the system. Also, certain mobs have been balanced to take into account high level farmers, thus hurting the natural, lower level farmers for these mobs. If this is the system that you currently operate in, of course you're going to claim that it's inefficient for lower levels to farm these. The problem is that the system inherited from naROSE is fundamentally flawed because it was a bandaid for a problem instead of a cure. However, now you consider it the norm and you're not happy when players with a different viewpoint explain to you why that system is fundamentally flawed from a game design perspective. 

causing the costs of these matts to be extremely high. UNLESS, High levels farm it, Which lowers greatly the cost of these matts, but then also lowers the cost of the items being crafted. This results in cheaper low level items. Something that is important and healthy for the economy of ROSE.  Low levels benefit from this more than immediately meets the eye. No, having low cost items for low levels does not make the economy healthy. Rather, appropriate access to supply and demand by the various participants in the economy makes the economy healthy. The economy is interconnected.
I can turn your argument on its head and prove that it is to the detriment of low level players using your own logic.
High level players can farm low level zones more efficiently because they face virtually no challenge and are vastly more powerful than the monsters. The comparison between high level players and low level players farming the same mob is not even close.
Therefore, if high level players produce a greater supply of Item A for a lower unit of time than low level players can, the value of Item A will adjust to match the effort required by high level players. This means that you create a disconnect between the effort required by low level players to obtain Item A (which will remain high in comparison to high level players) and the value of Item A on the market (which is dictated by the lower effort expended by high level players). Therefore, low level players are completely cut off from making an impact on the supply for this Item A, which is naturally farmed in low level maps - their maps. This means that low level players would get much less compensation per unit of time than they would have gotten if they had more control over the supply by competing among themselves.
Yet, these low level players do not operate in the sterile low level item realm that you present. No, they also spend resources to get items such as gems, which are not subject to the same supply and demand conditions as those for low level items. So, even if low level items cost less because high level players farm them, low level players still need to participate in the economy for other items and this is where their reduced earnings will hit them. Therefore, the effect of introducing high level players to low level farming is that low level player have reduced purchasing power in the economy. 
 

This is a very long-winded way to explain Economics 101 to you. It is precisely the cause why many businesses failed whenever there was a technological disruption to their industry. If your competitor can produce more widgets than you for lower the cost today, then the value of your widgets will decrease to match that of your competitor tomorrow. But that won't change the fact that you will still buy bread for the same price tomorrow. You will just have less funds and be at a disadvantage.

[GodOfEntity]

Well, thanks for, at the very least, convincing me to turn dark theme on. Something I should have done much sooner. (it'll take me time to actually read and analyze what you've written) 

Edited February 13, 2023 by GodOfEntity

[Bobbity]

I laughed when I saw that old Economics 101 mainstay 'widgets'. Brought back some memories.

[GodOfEntity]

I'm not against re-working the drop system. But to shut off high levels currently from being able to farm without doing a serious revamp of the drop system. Would be very bad for the game. 

[TheDutchCleric]

In my opinion high levels shouldn't farm low level maps, it's non challenging and destroys the economy. What should a low level sell if higher levels can get it too and 100x as efficient because they're alot stronger.

But hey thanks all for answering and giving opinions, that was why the post was made.

 

Just keep it friendly

[Kaizy]

I agree with Fietsopa and others. White mobs should not drop items. There's usually several max levels farming certain low level areas with the good spawns and timing kings like it's Orlo. If you cannot see how that deprives low level players of content, you must be blind. 

If high levels want to farm low level maps so bad, scale their power down to that level of the zone they're in like other mmos do. See how many high levels still want to farm versus just abuse a broken system and get rewarded for no risk/challenge.

[XOXO]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:14 PM, GodOfEntity said:

A possible solution to this, is keeping this server as a legacy server, and on the launch of the game, creating a new server for new players to join, starting in that way previously mentioned.

I've mentioned this before cause it may be a way to salvage what can be saved, and could serve as an invitation to new Visitors, but then one of the staff accused me of spreading fake news. She even said that my high hopes for a server wipe (another accusation) drove me into saying such lmfao. I've played a lot of MMO's, I've seen them rise and fall, and at the current state of the game, It's hard to say until when "nostalgia" is worth people's time.

[GodOfEntity]

I feel like, generally speaking, this is a "core belief".

 

There's not much I could say that would sway a mind.

 

-I could mention how the majority of a lowbies zullies is going to come from questing and item selling to the NPC. I could nullify other points that are being made, but at the end of the day. The core belief is that People shouldn't farm grey mob. -Is a core belief that seemingly several members are clearly very vocal and passionate about. 

I personally enjoy being able to farm grey mob. To say it doesn't make sense to be able to do so, idk. I think it makes sense. The developers had the choice to do otherwise before the game launch. 

I like their decision to have it be this "evo" Rose or whatever it is, this style of ROSE is re-offered to as.  It's unfortunate that it is believed that this destroys the game, how passionate that belief is. To not be able to see that some people enjoy to farm gray mob, they possibly shouldn't be shamed for such an enjoyment. "Oh you're such a big man killing that little jelly bean" I mean... heh... 

To me, there's just something satisfying about getting to be a high level, going back to where I started, to just, BAM destroy all those monster that gave me such a hard time when I first got to the game. (LETS NOT TALK ABOUT HOW I DIED THREE TIMES TO A JELLY BEAN OKAY *cries in corner*) -- For them to just, in such a satisfying way, drop loot like tiny piñatas. 

There's just something about going to Goblin Cave, being really strong, and just, destroying that little mob to have it still drop loot that is just, so satisfying to me. 

I love this game, not just a little bit. This is a game that means more to me than words can express, this game is my childhood, this game is my teenage years, this game is the very intricacies of my very life. I've most certainly considered that gray mobs dropping loot /could/ potentially be bad for the game. I've read those comments over, and over again, trying to see the same way everyone else sees it. Unfortunately, I'm mostly seeing low key insults. The arguments that I can counter, and feel like I have countered, goes completely ignored. Much like a conservative talking to a liberal srry (Though I identify as neither and politics are probably something to not be bringing up) 


It hurts because to me, this is a game I love, therefore players that love this game, love something that I love.  Almost like we love each other.  (of course not actually)  To have an opinion that others feel like, I'm destroying the game by wanting it this way, is hurtful to me. 

Anyways, I wish ya'll the best, here's to hoping that ya'll don't resent at me for being blind and not seeing how this is so clearly destroying the game. *raises a glass*  Maybe they'll change it. But the fact that it launched like this, shows to me that this is something that the Rednim team generally enjoys this as being a functional part of the game as well. 

Presumably, I have felt powerless in my life. Feeling overpowered in this game, brings me a lot of joy, personally. I believe that others may get a similar joy from such farming as well.  Sure does feel quiet on this side of opinion though. 

 

I mean! ... and on that note!... Anyone else think we should have a scroll temporarily for bringing us near that NPC in Fossil Sanctuary  until walking in that map is fixed? wew. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by GodOfEntity