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Seperate servers for early access & launch


Averybee24601
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4 hours ago, Wondertje said:

Then there is instead no difference between this and a proper closed beta with a wipe. Closed beta and/or proper open beta with a wipe could still be done and achieve the good things and more. Basically they are trying to satisfy two groups, one of which unfortunately was a vocal minority that forced them to abandon their intended plan. And there is no way in hell they're going to satisfy both, and by this point probably none.

EDIT: This is somewhat off-topic though, my bad.

I completely disagree with you saying that early access was forced on the devs due to inpatient people pushing them, I think it was absolutely in their best interest as well as the players. I think this because I believe Rednim understandably wants and needs the revenue of IM funding to continue, expand, and enhance development, and in general be financially viable during development and the holiday times. Yes they also looking out for the players best interest, and I could totally see how they felt a little bit pressured into this direction change, but I do not think at all this was the only reason.
Rednim said they had a goal of being open in 2022, I think this goal was not only for the players but rather was  in the devs best interest as well in effort to make development financially viable via IM sales. They’ve been in development for a year now, and the longer they go they really are losing money. The revenue kofi brings i highly doubt is enough to even fund the teams part time salary, let alone pay for server costs, etc. 

Edited by prettywomanlover
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There is one thing that a lot of people here seem to be forgetting.  ROSE is a game that is decades old so whether or not there is a wipe after early access doesn't matter because those of us who played the game before have a built-in advantage in the fact that we already know the game. No wipe can remove that.  

The way I see it, those of us with the advantage of having years of ROSE experience need to do our part at relaunch and be in Adv Plains (on new toons or existing toons or both) and help those brand new ROSE players by answering questions and guiding them as they start their journey.  

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Avery: I don't know why you keep using (at least) two accounts in this thread and it's getting rather confusing. Not to mention this topic now has about 4 separate discussions going on in it. The original idea, the economy of ROSE, wipe/no-wipe and whether player retention will be enough or not.

  • You are free to believe what you wish, but I do not for a second believe that they would've moved to an EA option if the community on Discord had been 100% behind their original plan and some people hadn't screamed their lungs out.
     
  • As for the economics part. The economy in ROSE is notorious for quick and massive inflation of prices - we will not under any circumstances be able to stop this unless there is a straight game mechanic in place to correct for it.
     
  • I still wholeheartedly believe that a wipe after early access would cover all bases, and I also wholeheartedly believe that a vast majority of people wouldn't quit. I know the argument "oh my god but all the vets will quit if they lose their progress" - no, they probably won't. A vast majority would keep playing after a reset, especially if it's announced first that there will be one (no surprise resets).
Edited by Wondertje
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27 minutes ago, HoneyBuns said:

There is one thing that a lot of people here seem to be forgetting.  ROSE is a game that is decades old so whether or not there is a wipe after early access doesn't matter because those of us who played the game before have a built-in advantage in the fact that we already know the game. No wipe can remove that.  

The way I see it, those of us with the advantage of having years of ROSE experience need to do our part at relaunch and be in Adv Plains (on new toons or existing toons or both) and help those brand new ROSE players by answering questions and guiding them as they start their journey.  

Well said.. Such an example would be getting to over level 100 on day one or two. 

I also have no doubt that many of us will be in Adv Plains helping everyone they can. This community is awesome and welcoming and new players will want to stay because of all the help they're getting. Also, seeing higher level players with their gear and such will help players choose the job that they want to go for. I remember when I first saw a raider on Pre-evo.. that's the job I wanted back then because of the white dragon knuckles lol (I'm a basic bitch). It's not all bad seeing higher level folks at the start of a game. 

25 minutes ago, Wondertje said:

Avery: I don't know why you keep using (at least) two accounts in this thread and it's getting rather confusing.

There are 3 so far that I count. His main post, the prettywoman account, and another one that he just likes/thanks his own posts with. It's absolutely ridiculous. 

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Excuse my ignorance for not reading every other wall of text in here. But as someone, who is on both sides of the fence to some degree, I want to give my two cents.

 

1. There is no middle-ground

As plenty of people have pointed out, opening extra servers is not an option. Not only is the population too small for multiple servers (keep in mind, that we are spread across the entire globe when it comes to timezones), but it will put people into an awkward position.

Half your clan wants to move on to the fresh server, what do you do? Your friends want to start playing the game, do you abandon the EA server and start on the fresh one with them? You have worked hard for your progress and taken a break until full release, now prices are 10 times higher, do you stay or move on?

Inevitably, one server would die. Either the fresh one, because the core community does not want to abandon their progress, or the EA server, because e.g. the economy is already in ruins and the fresh start attracts more people.

And I know that someone in favour of fresh servers does not care at all about the health of the EA server as an actual live server (which is evident from suggestions like making it into a test server instead).

But when the decision was made to not reset going forward, the reason was precisely, so people could keep any kind of progress they would make and keep playing normally. Either you wipe before full release or you don't. Any kind of "compromise solution" like a new server is just a way to try to get some kind of reset in disguise.

 

2. There are other perspectives than just your own one

It bothers me to see people from either side of the issue trying to be "right" and explaining why the other side is actually wrong and why their own perspective should also apply to someone from the other side. This is not that kind of issue.

  • It is incredibly condescending to tell someone, who does not want to play a game still undergoing major (re-)development, but also enjoys a fresh start on even ground, that it is an unreasonable desire to have and that they're possibly even benefitting from an inflated economy and other people being geared at max level.
  • At the same time, it is equally toxic, to tell someone to just suck it up and have their progress wiped, because that's what they personally want to see.

Everyone has their way of playing games, their perspectives and their desires. There is precedent for either resetting the game before launch or just having a early access (or "beta") version, which carries over to live. Whichever of those feels more natural to you depends on your past experiences, but both exist and are therefore valid paths.

There is no argument to win here about what's the "right" approach. Everyone's perspectives, experiences and desires are valid. Agree to disagree. The only question is what makes the most practical sense.

 

3. What makes the most practical sense

Personally and as a player I am firmly in the camp, that enjoys playing a full release with a fresh start. But I understand, that other people see things differently and that I may be in the minority (even if it is a vocal minority at times). Thus, I fully support the team's decision to do this early launch.

Right now, the game is not in a state to grow by any means. Even if we get new players to try, the vast majority would not only leave quickly, but have such a bad experience, that they'd never look back (and if you think otherwise, you should remove your rose-tinted glasses). The only reliable thing we have is our core audience. This is who is being catered to with the priorities of the project and also the decision to launch early.

The team, who is made up of ROSE community veterans of over a decade, think that having a long and drawn out EA and then wiping everyone's progress would only do harm by alienating that very core audience, leaving us with only a fraction of the players. I trust that judgement.

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1 hour ago, HoneyBuns said:

ROSE is a game that is decades old so whether or not there is a wipe after early access doesn't matter because those of us who played the game before have a built-in advantage in the fact that we already know the game. No wipe can remove that.  

All other things aside, that's the strangest argument in this thread so far. Having an advantage is not an excuse to get more (potential, argument aside) advantage. A person who has run a marathon before doesn't get to start closer to the finish line because of their previous experiences.

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44 minutes ago, Wondertje said:

All other things aside, that's the strangest argument in this thread so far. Having an advantage is not an excuse to get more (potential, argument aside) advantage. A person who has run a marathon before doesn't get to start closer to the finish line because of their previous experiences.

I don’t think she meant it that way. I think it’s more along the lines of, hey.. I know the episode quest gives 1 blue heart eventually, but I’m not going to start it now because I want to have enough charm to get 3 blue hearts. I then have the advantage of getting more quest rewards because of how long I’ve played this game, whereas a new person might not even know what charm does (this is just an example). Whether we have a server wipe or not, I still maintain this knowledge. 

Sorry if this isn’t the case, @HoneyBuns.. it’s how I understand it. 

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1 hour ago, Avatar said:

I don’t think she meant it that way. I think it’s more along the lines of, hey.. I know the episode quest gives 1 blue heart eventually, but I’m not going to start it now because I want to have enough charm to get 3 blue hearts. I then have the advantage of getting more quest rewards because of how long I’ve played this game, whereas a new person might not even know what charm does (this is just an example). Whether we have a server wipe or not, I still maintain this knowledge. 

Sorry if this isn’t the case, @HoneyBuns.. it’s how I understand it. 

You've got it exactly right.  We know which quests to do, where the best leveling spots are, which materials to save, which stats we need and how to progress in the game at whatever pace we choose. That familiarity is an advantage however you look at it so no matter what, we have a huge head start because of our knowledge about ROSE. It's different from a brand new game that no one has ever played before.

I can not see how making brand new players compete directly with the seasoned veterans would benefit the newbies at all. 

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So to be honest unless rednim pays people real money I cannot see a significant amount of vets making new characters day 1 to play with the new players, even if the vets stood by and told people to whisper any question on their max level 250 account you're missing the problem. The problem isn't new players seeing level 250's chilling beside them as they start, the problem isn't the already established economy, the problem isn't vets have more knowledge so resetting doesn't change anything. The problem is that if someone starts something and already sees they've lost. (In this case any player that starts rose will see all of the above and feel like they're so behind it doesn't even matter to start.) Anyone that is against a wipe has only made the arguments that are focused on themselves or that "Oh well we will just have to wipe every 6 months then" if this is or has been your argument you've missed the point entirely. This is the LAUNCH  of Rose Online, it will be people's first time seeing this game. The game at this point is getting a fresh start, it isn't 20 years old, there are people who have experience in the same way people who played osrs before rs3 had experience. I am confident that rednim will make enough changes (they've already started with the cleric changes) that most of the "vets" knowledge will be useless and we will all be learning together. I also disagree with rebus' statement about how the core community would quit if there was a wipe. I've said it on discord and I'll say it here there is 1 person who wants a wipe to every 2 people that don't want a wipe, and 20 people who just want to play the game and don't care

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8 minutes ago, Psyberius said:

So to be honest unless rednim pays people real money I cannot see a significant amount of vets making new characters day 1 to play with the new players, even if the vets stood by and told people to whisper any question on their max level 250 account you're missing the problem. The problem isn't new players seeing level 250's chilling beside them as they start, the problem isn't the already established economy, the problem isn't vets have more knowledge so resetting doesn't change anything. The problem is that if someone starts something and already sees they've lost. (In this case any player that starts rose will see all of the above and feel like they're so behind it doesn't even matter to start.) Anyone that is against a wipe has only made the arguments that are focused on themselves or that "Oh well we will just have to wipe every 6 months then" if this is or has been your argument you've missed the point entirely. This is the LAUNCH  of Rose Online, it will be people's first time seeing this game. The game at this point is getting a fresh start, it isn't 20 years old, there are people who have experience in the same way people who played osrs before rs3 had experience. I am confident that rednim will make enough changes (they've already started with the cleric changes) that most of the "vets" knowledge will be useless and we will all be learning together. I also disagree with rebus' statement about how the core community would quit if there was a wipe. I've said it on discord and I'll say it here there is 1 person who wants a wipe to every 2 people that don't want a wipe, and 20 people who just want to play the game and don't care

If a game is announced that they’re in early access, then people know what that means. We’re not hiding anything and people aren’t secretly being invited to play. 

As Rebus already stated, we’ll just agree to disagree. 

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I've seen many early access games wipe and many betas not wipe

2 minutes ago, Avatar said:

If a game is announced that they’re in early access, then people know what that means. We’re not hiding anything and people aren’t secretly being invited to play. 

As Rebus already stated, we’ll just agree to disagree. 

 

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Fresh start or progress moving on post-EA, both really doesn't matter to me personally. But by all means, in the second case, it should be done in a fair way for everyone. I trust the Rednim team for choosing what is best. I hope Rednim has some clever ways for moving the server to through the early access period.

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I jumped in on the discord chat about this. It just doesn't make sense. I haven't read the other replies, so sorry if I'm restating things that have been said but...

This doesn't solve any of the issues it's attempting to. There is no incentive for people playing on the EA server to move to the Launch server before the merge. Also I'd think that merge would cause more issues with the economy than anything. 

I don't feel as if a mature economy, high level crafters, etc, impacts the "launch experience" nearly as much as people are worrying about, if anything I would prefer to jump into a mature economy, plus there is opportunity for EA players to help give a leg up to new players and friends joining in at launch.

The key issue here is that "launch experience" where everyone is starting out at the same time, but even if there were a reset at launch, the level gap between veterans and new players will rapidly widen anyway.

It feels like some people who are arguing for a reset just want to be able to "out play" all the "new players" early on for some reason, and would prefer that to having to start out with mostly vets, with more players jumping in later.

As I understand it, the original plan was a short open beta, no reset unless there a major hacks, move into launch. But things are taking longer than expected, and there seems to be a good number of existing fans and even a few new players that are chomping at the bit to get in a play. So the game team have decided to launch with things in more of an Early Access state to both meet their 2022 goal, and capitalize on that hype before it dies down or people scratch the itch elsewhere.

Given all these factors and considerations, I could see a few different approaches and tweaks that might help alleviate some of the risks and concerns...

  1. Do the big launch player acquisition push at the onset of EA instead of holding off till the Launch. (This may already be the plan anyway).
  2. Somehow incentivize EA players to join the launch with fresh characters.
    1. Could even be enforced somehow.
      1. Extreme example might be you simply cant log in, but I'm more thinking of make it really hard for EA characters to farm or level during the first month or two, but still allow for shops and crafting.
  3. Offer a "boost" system at launch, as done with various wow expansions and "that one pirate irose server" has.
  4. I think this option will really affect retention and participation of EA players but they could simply do a reset at launch.
  5. I think a lot of momentum would be lost, but they could also just push it out and go with the OG plan of a 2-3 week open beta before launch, no reset.

</soapbox>

 

Edited by Need
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Haven't thought this through yet, but it just occurred to me...

Are you saying close the EA server at Launch, forcing EA players to start fresh on the Launch server? Then after the Launch server has been live as long as the EA server was, merge it in? 

Certainly intriguing and lines up with my idea of incentivize EA players to roll alts at launch. 

Edited by Need
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17 minutes ago, Need said:

Offer a "boost" system at launch, as done with various wow expansions and "that one pirate irose server" has.

If you're thinking of the server I'm thinking off, they disbanded the boost system because it created a huge influx of level 120 characters who lacked even basic knowledge of how the game worked and people got upset and left and whatnot. I personally don't think that any kind of boost system brings anything good to a game. The game has a learning curve, and it's best learnt during the early levels 1 - 100 or so. If we boost people up to 100+ they will miss not only quite essential things for first timers, such as experiencing the main story of the game, learning mechanics, learning the economy - but it also negates basically the intention of the game. If we have a game where providing people will level 100+ characters is a viable option, especially in the beginning, then something is broken with the game.

--

And their idea didn't originally pertain to locking the EA server. I said it would be the only thing that made sense if the idea was implemented as otherwise we'd just move the problem ahead of us and not fixing it.

To clarify, I have never explicitally said that I am for the idea because I'm not even sure I am. My messages have all been under the presumption that if it gets implemented then what would be needed.

Edited by Wondertje
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21 hours ago, Rebus said:

Right now, the game is not in a state to grow by any means. Even if we get new players to try, the vast majority would not only leave quickly, but have such a bad experience, that they'd never look back (and if you think otherwise, you should remove your rose-tinted glasses).

I gathered things we're behind expectations but I guess I didn't realize it was in such a state, in this case perhaps just pushing things out is indeed the best of options.

Although I do appreciate the team striving for an EA with no reset, mostly because I just wanna dive in now and not lose progress, lol.

The other option, which would appease me personally, is an expanded alpha access, with a reset before a short open beta / EA next year. I would play much casually in the alpha, in bursts, and take time off before jumping back after the reset.

Edited by Need
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18 minutes ago, Wondertje said:

If you're thinking of the server I'm thinking off, they disbanded the boost system because it created a huge influx of level 120 characters who lacked even basic knowledge of how the game worked and people got upset and left and whatnot. I personally don't think that any kind of boost system brings anything good to a game. The game has a learning curve, and it's best learnt during the early levels 1 - 100 or so. If we boost people up to 100+ they will miss not only quite essential things for first timers, such as experiencing the main story of the game, learning mechanics, learning the economy - but it also negates basically the intention of the game. If we have a game where providing people will level 100+ characters is a viable option, especially in the beginning, then something is broken with the game.

--

And their idea didn't originally pertain to locking the EA server. I said it would be the only thing that made sense if the idea was implemented as otherwise we'd just move the problem ahead of us and not fixing it.

To clarify, I have never explicitally said that I am for the idea because I'm not even sure I am. My messages have all been under the presumption that if it gets implemented then what would be needed.

 

Yea, I think we're mostly aligned on this. I didn't really think the boost thing through other than it did manage to pull me into WoW for a little while. I never really got into it despite literally all my friends moving to it from rose way way back. I stayed on rose and like 10 years later played for a while with one of the boost expansions. 

 

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On 9/20/2022 at 11:54 PM, Avatar said:

Groups have no level gap, unless these devs are going to implement one. 

I have to quote on this one. Do you know one thing that Groups served for in naROSE? Yes correct! Powerleveling. Did you know why Sacrifice deals no damage? Yes correct! Powerleveling. Everything in naROSE was built to powerlevel so they can focus on nothing but endgame content only and not the game as a whole.

Additionally, high level players on other planets is considered as "separating" them from lower level players? I don't care if they are on the same map, it is for as long as they have different game economy. But even if they moved into the 11th dimension, high level players and low level players are still in the same toxic economy.

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11 minutes ago, RoseOnPlayer said:

I have to quote on this one. Do you know one thing that Groups served for in naROSE? Yes correct! Powerleveling. Did you know why Sacrifice deals no damage? Yes correct! Powerleveling. Everything in naROSE was built to powerlevel so they can focus on nothing but endgame content only and not the game as a whole.

Additionally, high level players on other planets is considered as "separating" them from lower level players? I don't care if they are on the same map, it is for as long as they have different game economy. But even if they moved into the 11th dimension, high level players and low level players are still in the same toxic economy.

I understood absolutely 0% of what you’ve said or are trying to say. 

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On 9/20/2022 at 11:31 PM, Rebus said:

Right now, the game is not in a state to grow by any means. Even if we get new players to try, the vast majority would not only leave quickly, but have such a bad experience, that they'd never look back (and if you think otherwise, you should remove your rose-tinted glasses). The only reliable thing we have is our core audience. This is who is being catered to with the priorities of the project and also the decision to launch early.

If the state of the game is such as described above, I don't even understand why you would put out anything other than alpha. This would affect the core audiance during an EA just as much. You would lose half your future audience in the first weeks of an EA.

The only reasonable explanation I have for this, is that Rednim is running low on money (no shame in that, they are only a small developer) and their only way to a sustainable future is pushing out the game early to get income from the IM to continue developing the game. And then hope they can keep some early retainment. If this is not the case, I think pushing out an EA in any other case would be just bad management. 

You only have one shot on an initial launch. 

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5 hours ago, Goande said:

If the state of the game is such as described above, I don't even understand why you would put out anything other than alpha. This would affect the core audiance during an EA just as much. You would lose half your future audience in the first weeks of an EA.

I would disagree with this. Our core audience at large wants the game to be exactly the same as it was before it shut down (except for some quality of life changes and additional content) or in some cases return to the iROSE mechanics. And they want it now.

What "ROSE being ROSE" means to you probably differs a lot from person to person. To me it's mostly the assets (visuals and music) and the concept of the jobs, gems and refining being a thing (without any concrete details of how they work). But to most people, it seems like ROSE is only real ROSE if it includes all those unpolished game systems in the state they were last in, everything being poorly balanced and multiple layers of positive feedback systems.

There seems to be a fear of losing one's advantage of knowing how everything works and how to exploit the systems to the fullest and the ability to grind for a long time to get to ridiculous levels of power (due to all the multiplicative systems) compared to a newbie.

 

A new player has not invested years into playing and getting better at this game. Therefore, being able to "cash in" on that investment is not what they are looking for in terms of game design, balance and polishing. They expect a well rounded gaming experience. Even the leveling is not in a state to be released to the wider public. This is due to the lack of quests after ~level 50 (except for mostly some repeatable quests in highly contested spots), lack of a proper equipment progression, lack of proper tutorials, lack of side activities, miserable soloing experience and generally much slower speed compared to someone with good buffs and decent equipment (which is hardly attainable for a new player).

And then we have the lack of endgame content, the layers of positive feedback systems making it impossible to have a good time in PvP as a beginner, crafting requiring leveling and gearing another character, dual clienting possibly still being the most effective thing to do and all the other little quirks, which aren't really welcoming to a new player (but beloved by our core audience).

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2 hours ago, Rebus said:

I would disagree with this. Our core audience at large wants the game to be exactly the same as it was before it shut down (except for some quality of life changes and additional content) or in some cases return to the iROSE mechanics. And they want it now.

What "ROSE being ROSE" means to you probably differs a lot from person to person. To me it's mostly the assets (visuals and music) and the concept of the jobs, gems and refining being a thing (without any concrete details of how they work). But to most people, it seems like ROSE is only real ROSE if it includes all those unpolished game systems in the state they were last in, everything being poorly balanced and multiple layers of positive feedback systems.

There seems to be a fear of losing one's advantage of knowing how everything works and how to exploit the systems to the fullest and the ability to grind for a long time to get to ridiculous levels of power (due to all the multiplicative systems) compared to a newbie.

 

A new player has not invested years into playing and getting better at this game. Therefore, being able to "cash in" on that investment is not what they are looking for in terms of game design, balance and polishing. They expect a well rounded gaming experience. Even the leveling is not in a state to be released to the wider public. This is due to the lack of quests after ~level 50 (except for mostly some repeatable quests in highly contested spots), lack of a proper equipment progression, lack of proper tutorials, lack of side activities, miserable soloing experience and generally much slower speed compared to someone with good buffs and decent equipment (which is hardly attainable for a new player).

And then we have the lack of endgame content, the layers of positive feedback systems making it impossible to have a good time in PvP as a beginner, crafting requiring leveling and gearing another character, dual clienting possibly still being the most effective thing to do and all the other little quirks, which aren't really welcoming to a new player (but beloved by our core audience).

I'm pretty sure you just proved their point. The game you are describing is nowhere near ready to go into early access, not even slightly. Early access is a step forward from alpha, and what you're describing sounds barely ready for a closed beta, let alone an open early access release.

Edited by Wondertje
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2 minutes ago, Wondertje said:

I'm pretty sure you just proved their point. The game you are describing is nowhere near ready to go into early access, not even slightly. Early access is a step forward from alpha, and what you're describing sounds barely ready for a closed beta, let alone an open early access release.

The game I'm describing is the game, that was live for over a decade and beloved by the small community playing it till the end. 🤷‍♂️

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